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1.  ivan2908
SelfProclaimedTitler
23 Aug '08 16:34 / 5 edits
Going through some tactical book... This is the exercise ;

Level 1 : Anderssen (Black, to play) has sacrificed a piece to reach this position. He concluders with a spectacular sacrifice that cuts off the king's retreat and forces mate in a few moves.

The move is pretty much obvious;

1. Nd3 opening up discovered attack on the white f4 knight. If 1...Rxe8 then Bxf4# or if 1...Qxd3 then 2. Qxe1 followed by 3. Bxf4#.

But as I found that two options (I am solving those exercise in my mind in front of chessboard with given position so I could miss something) I decided to look a bit more to find out if there is some move for white to save himself.

And indeed, after a minute or two I noticed move Nxf3 that protects both e1 rook and f4 knight. So altough black still have the edge and will eventually win as far as I can see this doesn't look like forced mate.

This kind of books make me angry. Why this option wasn't mentioned in solutions ?

And I thought I was a problem and starred 30 minutes at the board like I was retarted because I couldn't find forced mate.

Aren't forced mates called forced because they are FORCED ??
2. 23 Aug '08 16:45
As a form of consolation, this puzzle from Anderssen will make you happy:

White to move.
3.  paultopia
High Priest
23 Aug '08 16:45 / 1 edit
Originally posted by ivan2908
Going through some tactical book... This is the exercise ;

[fen]2r1q3/pp4k1/3b1p1r/4n2p/3P1NpP/2P2pK1/PPQN4/R1B1R3 b - - 0 1[/fen]

Level 1 : Anderssen (Black, to play) has sacrificed a piece to reach this position. He concluders with a spectacular sacrifice that cuts off the king's retreat and forces mate in a few moves.

The move is pretty couldn't find forced mate.

Aren't forced mates called forced because they are FORCED ??
Still, it's not like there's much left of white after that move -- viz. Nd3 Nxf3 Bxf4+ Kg2 gxf3+ then if Kxf3, black wins rook and queen with Nxe1, probably mate to follow in fairly short order with all this extra active material!, and if Kh3 (the only other legal possibility, I think) Qd7+ and mate in one after white futilely blocks with the rook.

At least, I think that's right -- I don't have a board handy or winboard on my computer, so that analysis is all in my head. No warranties.

(EDIT: WHOOPS, no, that's dead wrong. Uh, this is why I tend to lose at blitz. :-) )
4. 23 Aug '08 16:46
Originally posted by ivan2908
Going through some tactical book... This is the exercise ;

[fen]2r1q3/pp4k1/3b1p1r/4n2p/3P1NpP/2P2pK1/PPQN4/R1B1R3 b - - 0 1[/fen]

Level 1 : Anderssen (Black, to play) has sacrificed a piece to reach this position. He concluders with a spectacular sacrifice that cuts off the king's retreat and forces mate in a few moves.

The move is pretty ...[text shortened]... couldn't find forced mate.

Aren't forced mates called forced because they are FORCED ??
At that position, who was supposed to move?! White or Black?
5. 23 Aug '08 16:47
Originally posted by ram1977
At that position, who was supposed to move?! White or Black?
6. 23 Aug '08 16:52
Originally posted by heinzkat
As a form of consolation, this puzzle from Anderssen will make you happy:

[fen]r1q1r3/8/k1p5/1pK5/7R/1P6/8/4QB2 w - -[/fen]

White to move.
I think Bxb5+ seems to be winning for white
7.  ivan2908
SelfProclaimedTitler
23 Aug '08 16:53 / 1 edit
Originally posted by paultopia
Still, it's not like there's much left of white after that move -- viz. Nd3 Nxf3 Bxf4+ Kg2 gxf3+ then if Kxf3, black wins rook and queen with Nxe1, probably mate to follow in fairly short order with all this extra active material!, and if Kh3 (the only other legal possibility, I think) Qd7+ and mate in one after white futilely blocks with the rook.

At board handy or winboard on my computer, so that analysis is all in my head. No warranties.
I think there is not mate at least within ten moves as far as I can see not to mention the word forced.
8. 23 Aug '08 16:56 / 1 edit
Originally posted by heinzkat
Then I guess, Black will win the Queen after a couple of moves...

If, after ..Nd3, white moves Nxf3, then ..Bxf4+, white King has to move to only one place: Kg2.

Then Black can play Nxe1+ and eventually corner the King.
9. 23 Aug '08 16:56
Originally posted by ram1977
I think Bxb5+ seems to be winning for white
Quite the opposite after 1. ... cxb5+
10. 23 Aug '08 16:58
Originally posted by heinzkat
Quite the opposite after 1. ... cxb5+
Oops... I missed that

Hmmm... Looks interesting now... I need to take a second, third and probably a few more looks
11. 23 Aug '08 16:59 / 1 edit
Originally posted by ram1977
Then I guess, Black will win the Queen after a couple of moves...

If, after ..Nd3, white moves Nxf3, then ..Bxf4+, white King has to move to only one place: Kg2.

Then Black can play Nxe1+ and eventually corner the King.
After Bxf4+, White plays Bxf4 [the Nxf3 uncovers the c1 Bishop]
12. 23 Aug '08 17:01
Originally posted by heinzkat
After Bxf4+, White plays Bxf4 [the Nxf3 uncovers the c1 Bishop]
And another overlook... Its time for me to sleep...
13. 23 Aug '08 17:16
Originally posted by ivan2908
I think there is not mate at least within ten moves as far as I can see not to mention the word forced.
I agree...

Nothing forced... But Black can still be in a winning position if the pawn captures the Knight. But then, I too didn't see a forced situation...
14.  ivan2908
SelfProclaimedTitler
23 Aug '08 17:26 / 1 edit
Originally posted by ivan2908
Going through some tactical book... This is the exercise ;

[fen]2r1q3/pp4k1/3b1p1r/4n2p/3P1NpP/2P2pK1/PPQN4/R1B1R3 b - - 0 1[/fen]

Level 1 : Anderssen (Black, to play) has sacrificed a piece to reach this position. He concluders with a spectacular sacrifice that cuts off the king's retreat and forces mate in a few moves.

The move is pretty couldn't find forced mate.

Aren't forced mates called forced because they are FORCED ??
And yeah, this is actual Anderssen game, not a composed puzzle !
15.  ivan2908
SelfProclaimedTitler
23 Aug '08 17:28
Originally posted by heinzkat
As a form of consolation, this puzzle from Anderssen will make you happy:

[fen]r1q1r3/8/k1p5/1pK5/7R/1P6/8/4QB2 w - -[/fen]

White to move.
Can't find it