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  1. 29 Jul '07 16:05
    Everybody agrees that if you use an engine to play chess then you are a cheat. However I would like to know why the many players on this site who admit to using a book or database for the first 20 moves or whatever are not also considered cheats. I often read sentences like 'I was still in book until move 18...'
    Surely doing whatever a book or database tells you is the same as doing whatever an engine tells you? I've never seen a professional in the world championships sitting with a chess book in front of him during a match.
    Maybe there is a simple explanation for this but I can't think of it.
  2. 29 Jul '07 16:07
    (b) While a game is in progress you may not refer to chess engines, chess computers or be assisted by a third party. Endgame tablebases may not be consulted during play but you may reference books, databases consisting of previously played games between human players, and other pre-existing research materials.
  3. Standard member Stregone
    Stregone
    29 Jul '07 16:10
    Originally posted by Stephen King
    I would like to know why the many players on this site who admit to using a book or database....
    Surely doing whatever a book or database tells you is the same as doing whatever an engine tells you? I've never seen a professional in the world championships sitting with a chess book in front of him during a match.
    I suspect that there's a difference between referring to a book and some chess engine. But you make a good point: "I've never seen a professional...."
  4. 29 Jul '07 16:12
    Thanks.
    Okay so officially it's allowed but isn't it the same as 3rd party help. Still means that a player with the ability of a 1200 can follow a book and maybe beat someone a lot higher without actually knowing why they made the moves they did.
  5. 29 Jul '07 16:12
    Originally posted by Stregone
    I suspect that there's a difference between referring to a book and some chess engine. But you make a good point: "I've never seen a professional...."
    I suspect OTB chess is a little bit different from correspondence chess.
  6. Standard member chessisvanity
    THE BISHOP GOD
    29 Jul '07 16:18
    it's CC chess.....i'm here to learn....i don't use engines but i do use an opening book....why?....cause thats what CC chess is for!!

    Back in the 80's when dudes were playing CC chess.....they didn't sit there and stare at the board for weeks on end.....they researched the moves from previous games...the extra time gives us feedom to learn the opening played.....

    The point?...i use a book here....so when i am at at tournament i know what the hell i am doing. now if you don't mind....i need to get some whiskey....you guys stress me man.
  7. 29 Jul '07 16:22
    Okay thanks for the explanation.
    I see what you mean about the best players using this site as a place to practise their openings and theory. You're right that I have no idea how deep theory goes.
    I still think it's possible that people around my level can just use a book and win unfairly.
  8. 29 Jul '07 16:26
    I've never tried so wouldn't know how hard it is to use a database to win as a lower level player so I'll take you're word for it that it's not possible.
  9. 29 Jul '07 16:34
    Well, one argument to consider is whether memory is really skill? Are you cheating if you have an uncanny ability to memorize the openings? After all, it's not based on your skill or your ability to understand the moves you're making. You're just referring to the book in your head.

    So maybe the databases are equalizers against people with better memory.
  10. 29 Jul '07 16:34
    Okay it's clear to me now. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.
  11. 29 Jul '07 16:34 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by Stephen King
    Everybody agrees that if you use an engine to play chess then you are a cheat. However I would like to know why the many players on this site who admit to using a book or database for the first 20 moves or whatever are not also considered cheats. I often read sentences like 'I was still in book until move 18...'
    Surely doing whatever a book or data f him during a match.
    Maybe there is a simple explanation for this but I can't think of it.
    In a way I think you have a point.
    Take this Game 3829842 where until move 11 for white I follow the suggestion of Hannes Langrock in The Modern Morra gambit to combat the so called Evans Defence or as he calls it the "notorious a6"- possibly the toughest line for white.

    Ok, my opponent blundered badly on move 12, but I have to admit, OTB or in C.C without a book, it is very dubious as to whether I'd see that line for white.

    Black to move (resigns)


    I would say though that it is absolutely impossible to ban books or db use, purely because that would mean you'd have to throw all chess opening theory out the window!
    No more Ruy Lopez to move 10, or Siclian Dragon/Yugoslav Attack...
    Hey!
    He's obviously using a book!
    Lol
  12. 29 Jul '07 17:25
    What is meant by endgame tablebases? I am not familiar with that term.
  13. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    29 Jul '07 17:38 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by mcreynolds
    What is meant by endgame tablebases? I am not familiar with that term.
    They are reverse engineered solutions to all 3-4-5 and now 6 piece endgames. Basically you put the position into the EGTB reader and it tells you the result for each move, and if it's winning or losing how far from checkmate you are. They are not allowed here as they are the result of engine calculation, openings databases are allowed since they are databases of human games and there is a level of doubt as to whether a recommended move really is the best one.

    Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endgame_tablebase exlains them reasonably well; the article talks about their use in correspondence chess, EGTB lookups are not allowed for games played on this site. Obviously you can use them to compare what you did with the ideal result once the game is finished.
  14. 29 Jul '07 18:02
    Databases and books are allowed partly because it is impossible to prevent the use of them. The same will eventually be true of engines.
  15. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    29 Jul '07 18:19
    Books have been permitted in correspondence chess for decades.

    In fact I believe the ICCF permits the use of engines also.