Hi,
I know when I've played correspondence chess that the rules allowed you to use books, but not computers, and not other people.
So I was kind of wondering if there's any kind of standard practice or rules at RHP? I would have a tendency to think that the same rules would apply as to correspondence chess, but even if it is legal to look up an opening line in a book, I would be concerned that if very many RHP players have never played correspondence chess, they might not be aware that it's OK to do.
Has RHP posted any rules? If not, I'd be curious what other players have assumed to be the standard practice.
Thanks!
twotowers
I don't think there is an official rhp posting on correspondence chess
do's and don'ts'. Personally I think using chess databases borders
on
being unethical since you can search by opening or position to find
games played with similar positions. I'm a casual, recreational
player, so i don't use books, chess databases, or solicit help from
others.
Respectfully,
S.
😀 Cool feature to allow gifs !
Originally posted by twotowersThat was a very interesting thread title, very Zen I thought....
Hi,
I know when I've played correspondence chess that the rules allowed you to use
books, but not computers, and not other people.
So I was kind of wondering if there's any kind of standard practice or rules at RHP? I
would have a tendency to think that the same rules would apply as to
correspondence chess, but even if it is legal to look up a ...[text shortened]... e curious what other players have assumed
to be the standard practice.
Thanks!
twotowers
Joe 😉
- Joined
- 26 May 02
- Moves
- 72546
Originally posted by snlWhy is it bordering on being unethical to find games played with
I don't think there is an official rhp posting on correspondence
chess
do's and don'ts'. Personally I think using chess databases borders
on
being unethical since you can search by opening or position to find
games played with similar positions. I'm a casual, recreational
player, so i don't use books, chess databases, or solicit help from
others.
Respectfully,
S.
😀 Cool feature to allow gifs !
similar positions?
Isn't that the whole point of chess theory?
The best thing about correspondence chess is that it encourages
people to look up openings, and play games at a standard they could
not possibly acheive in an over-the-board game with strict time
controls.
I know that many use RHP to play casual games and don't need
books or databases, but please don't criticise those who choose to do
so - it's not a crime to play serious chess!
Dave
Btw, everyone should check out snl's profile. It's brilliant 😀😀😉
I'm agree with David. Correspondance chess is the best way to go
deep in tactics and openning because you have time to check in
books to see what are the possible variations. Since I play here and I
use opening books in my games I improved my chess skills! Even in
my real time games! When I face an opening that I've never saw I
definitly go through my books to learn more about it! I'm not really
using database because I'm too lazy to look at it but I think that's
could be a good way to learn some tricks from masters games.
Anyway books and database are just good for the very first moves of
a game... for the rest you have to use your brain and you instinct!! 🙂
Yan
Personally I think using chess databases borders onBTW, I don't even know what the normal correspondence rules are about Databasses. I would assume that even if you had an CD-rom based reference on an opening, it would fall under the catagory of "using a computer." If anyone knows what the rules are about databases, I would be interested in knowing.http://www.redhotpawn.com/images/forums/sml-norm.gif
being unethical since you can search by opening or position to find
games played with similar positions.
But the fact that normal correspondence rules do allow the use of books does give the players a chance to learn the openings. And I agree with Dave, that it's one of the nice things about correspondence chess.
As far as being ethical, as long as the rules are clearly understood by both players it is at least fair to both sides. Hence the delima. If I assume that RHP members are not familiar with normal correspondence rules, then using books would be unfair. If I choose not to for this reason, and some players are using books, then it is again, not fair to both sides.
If we were playing a USCF e-mail correspondence match, the same rules would apply as a snail-mail match. And I would think most correspondence organizations have accepted these rules as standard practice. And I believe that ICC's (Internet Chess Club) e-mail based tournements follow exactly the same rules.
Originally posted by David TebbHey David,
Why is it bordering on being unethical to find games played with
similar positions?
Isn't that the whole point of chess theory?
The best thing about correspondence chess is that it encourages
people to look up openings, and pl ...[text shortened]... everyone
should check out snl's profile. It's brilliant 😀😀😉
Let me clearly state that I did not intend to criticize anyone. This
issue has been an on-going debate among CC players ever since
commercial chess programs got strong. But once a game begins, in
my opinion, searching for positions in a chess database is an unfair
external influence because you see how the resulting position is
played/continued by leading chess masters.
Respectfully,
and don't forget to stand and salute the flag 😀
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- 26 May 02
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- 72546
For anyone who is unsure of the rules of correspondence chess
regarding the use of books, databases and computers - here are the
relevant sections of the rules listed by two federations:-
World Correspondence Chess Federation Rules
8. CONSULTATION:
a. Players are free to consult chess publications or literature, in printed
or electronic form.
b. The use of a chess engine (such as Chessmaster) or any other
form of consultation must be agreed to by both players and Director
before the start of the game
SCCA Correspondence Chess Rules
(Last Updated 14 May 2002)
24. General Etiquette
(a) Assistance or advice concerning the play must not be sought, nor
accepted, from any other person or computer program, but books,
databases or works of reference may be consulted.
In other words, you can use books, magazines, databases, cd-roms,
or any other form of reference work (in printed or electronic form), at
any stage of the game. However it is not permitted to use computer
programs to evaluate positions, or to seek advice.
Dave
I decided to e-mail RHP and this is the reply I recieved
[/quote]
Books, not computers, is the way we expect people to play. There is no firm rule about this, but using a computer to suggest moves is very much frowned upon. (It is impossible to enforce this rule, so there is no point stating it explicitly)
Hope that helps,
Regards,
-Russ
[/quote]
Originally posted by David TebbHmm..maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure I see the logic
24. General Etiquette
(a) Assistance or advice concerning the play must not be sought, nor
accepted, from any other person or computer program, but books,
databases or works of reference may be consulted.
here. What's the practical difference between using a database to see
what a grandmaster did in a certain position, and seeking "advice or
assistance concerning the play"? It seems odd that someone's not
allowed to ask their Uncle Dave what he would do in a given situation,
but can check a database to see what various grandmasters did when
facing that situation.
Hard to say, really - I think the likelihood of you being able to find an
exact match to the position that you're in is probably only going to
come up in opening and endgame positions, there are just too many
possible variations in the middle game. Unless someone has
compiled every game that has ever been played in a searchable
database, but even then you still might not find your position.
Which brings everything back to books - there are plenty of books on
endgame strategy and many more on openings, and the rules seem
pretty clear that these may be used. If you have a book on the Ruy
Lopez opening, or a game where Kasparov played that opening, you'll
probably get more out of the book than by looking at the game, since
it will discuss the different lines and effects of each move that is made.
Just my opinion, but it seems to make sense.
-mike
databases will many times allow a player to play at grandmasterOne way to avoid this problem is to make a bonehead move early in
strength (by copying their games) for up to 30 moves.
Rein[/b]
the game - that way you can be sure that the position will be different
than any in a grandmaster game! 😀
But seriously, I've had similar concerns before. Presumably it would
not be allowed to have a high-level chess program play itself ad
nausem and output the games into a database, so that for any
conceivable position you have the computer's past moves at your
disposal. At what point does using a database become unfair? 😕
The generally accepted rule on this site (as far as I know) is that
databases are OK. If you use one, you may have an "unfair"
advantage over someone who doesn't. By the same token, someone
who has been playing the game seriously for decades has an "unfair"
advantage over a beginner. "Fair" is an irrelevant concept in chess -
there are only rules. Until the rules are changed to outlaw databases,
you should expect a serious player to use them.
Rich
It raises another interesting issue. Would any of you be able to tell if
you were playing someone who was effectively playing at a
grandmaster level? Not being anything even remotely resembling a
grandmaster myself, I'm not sure that I would. At least not until
relatively late in the game, when thinking back on certain moves it
became apparent that my opponent was thinking very far in advance!
-mike