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  1. 01 Feb '10 08:01 / 7 edits
    hi i have been really wondering about this thing, ever since my froms gambit got
    busted, if it is indeed possible to get in an early ...Bf5 in against the bird opening to
    get a real grip of e4, and how those who play the bird, the illustrious wormwood
    and others think about this. here is my Idea it simply consists of a kind of reversed
    London system.



    i kind of have the suspicion that black could play h6 to preserve the bishop, but i
    dont know. Also seems like insted of ...Nc6 ...c5 might be playable to discourage d4, but i dont know.
  2. 01 Feb '10 13:41
    I like to play te setup with h6, Bh7 c6 and Nbd7 playing for e5 push, and in case of d4 to place N on e4...I use that set-up against irregular openings and I think it would work against this white set-up also
  3. 01 Feb '10 16:11
    Looks like so far so good to me.
  4. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    01 Feb '10 16:38 / 1 edit
    I don't really have a clear answer to Bf5, but in practice it gives white a lot of options he otherwise wouldn't have. the first one is that d3-e4 comes with a tempo. which can sometimes mean something like the following might happen:



    now, it's easily avoidable in your specific position, but I'm sure you can see the potential problem with the bishop sitting on f5. getting e4 in with a tempo will be the first thing white will be looking at. and in cases where black doesn't fianchetto his king's bishop the e4 push often happens with a pawn sac, so it's not always enough to control e4.

    another slight problem is that with Bf5-h6 you're using two pawn moves to develop one bishop.

    yet another problem is white can force e4 in with Nc3 or Nd2 anyway. which can also involve a b2 pawn sac developing Bb2 if black tries to chase the Nc3 away with d4, so that's not so easy either.

    in general, white is often up to sacrificing e or f pawns in the leningrad. here's the most basic e4 sac:



    black can survive it, but it's a bit hairy. I just love the pause that happens after 9.Ne5 in blitz, when black suddenly realizes something's very wrong here. 🙂
  5. 02 Feb '10 01:44
    thnaks wormwood, its really great you took the time. i have decided that i do not like the control white gets over the e5 square, black must contest that otherwise he leaves himself open to all sots of tricks, i am presently experimenting with a reversed Colle building up latent pressure and trying to push e6 - e5 and Kings Indian which seems to me to be the most solid, or at least offer the least amount of weaknesses. wish me luck, ill need it 🙂
  6. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    02 Feb '10 03:30
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    thnaks wormwood, its really great you took the time. i have decided that i do not like the control white gets over the e5 square, black must contest that otherwise he leaves himself open to all sots of tricks, i am presently experimenting with a reversed Colle building up latent pressure and trying to push e6 - e5 and Kings Indian which seems to me ...[text shortened]... the most solid, or at least offer the least amount of weaknesses. wish me luck, ill need it 🙂
    it helps me as well to talk these through with someone. it's not like I had it all figured out, you know. far from it. and reversed leningrad having almost no existing theory doesn't really help. on the flipside it's just as hard for the opponents.
  7. 02 Feb '10 04:17 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by wormwood
    it helps me as well to talk these through with someone. it's not like I had it all figured out, you know. far from it. and reversed leningrad having almost no existing theory doesn't really help. on the flipside it's just as hard for the opponents.
    well my reversed Colle has proved a dismal failure, the Kings Indian is the most resilient. i dont know but as soon as i play d5 against either queens pawn game or something else like the bird i am aware of a glaring hole at e5. why should this be the case? its just so annoying. what are we to do? shore it up with pieces? is this the usual practice? i dunno, what i do know is that i dont know anything about openings past move 3. Wow, little or no theory, its virgin territory, like going into the Amazon, you either can come out with gold or dead! i am going back to playing chess master to test out some other stuff, if i think of anything that is worthy of your attention, i shall let you know, as it is i am really disappointed, i really thought i had this opening business cracked, but all is gloom - robbie carrobie.
  8. 03 Feb '10 02:06
    Originally posted by National Master Dale
    Looks like so far so good to me.
    Although I dont understand most of the language being used here, I would definitely say Bf5 is a mistake for two reasons:

    1) If black castles 0-0, then the bishop is just going to be a target to whites pawn stom

    2) If black castles 0-0-0, then the bishop is just an isolated and impotent target now
  9. 06 Feb '10 08:22 / 2 edits
    A very interesting Alekhine game where he plays an early Bf5
    and which demonstrates the weakness of e3!

  10. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    06 Feb '10 15:08
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    A very interesting Alekhine game where he plays an early Bf5
    and which demonstrates the weakness of e3!
    that's quite a typical problem you get when starting to play the bird or dutch. I've lost many blitz games exactly like that. nowadays I go Na3 almost automatically.
  11. 06 Feb '10 18:26 / 1 edit
    i am sorry wormwood, i have looked and looked and looked and looked and i cannot see the subtleties of Na3. i am really interested in this move e3, for it seems to me that the games that you posted omitted this move or to be more accurate, delayed it in favour of a timely e4! there is a very simple way of playing against the Bird which is kind of like a Froms deferred, ill show you it, because it is of relevance to the post. Its been played by Kasparov, however GM. Daneilson is an expert in lines against it and is a true Leningrad reversed i think.
  12. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    06 Feb '10 23:12
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    i am sorry wormwood, i have looked and looked and looked and looked and i cannot see the subtleties of Na3. i am really interested in this move e3, for it seems to me that the games that you posted omitted this move or to be more accurate, delayed it in favour of a timely e4! there is a very simple way of playing against the Bird which is kind of li ...[text shortened]... however GM. Daneilson is an expert in lines against it and is a true Leningrad reversed i think.
    I only play e3 if black plays 1...Nc6 or 2...Nc6, allowing me to pin the knight. otherwise I always look for how to force e4 straight.

    Na3 is mostly connected with c3. it's out of the way, always ready to hop into c4 (the threat of which often makes it hard for black to attack on queenside, where his main play is).
  13. 07 Feb '10 06:05
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    however GM. Daneilson is an expert in lines against it and is a true Leningrad reversed i think.
    You can find GM Henrik Danielsen's Youtube channel here:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/krakkaskak

    For all videos relating to the Birds Opening, search his videos for "Polar bear"

    He is my chess idol and I always play the Birds opening as white because of it

    As for the weakness of e3: f4, nf3, g3, Bg2 is a fine setup also
  14. 07 Feb '10 06:52
    Originally posted by Tiwaking
    You can find GM Henrik Danielsen's Youtube channel here:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/krakkaskak

    For all videos relating to the Birds Opening, search his videos for "Polar bear"

    He is my chess idol and I always play the Birds opening as white because of it

    As for the weakness of e3: f4, nf3, g3, Bg2 is a fine setup also
    i think his sense of humour is great, there is a game where he has to go and buy candy for his kid and during it he is two pawns up and says, 'its just tooo good', i giggled for ages at that. also like the way the way he suggests moves for his opponent. i myself am not interested in playing bird, i want to know how to play against it.
  15. 07 Feb '10 07:20
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    i myself am not interested in playing bird, i want to know how to play against it.
    To be honest, I dont think there is a way to play 'against the Birds opening'. 1. f4 is, to paraphrase Fischer, a 'High class waiting move'

    Both players should just grit their teeth and play out their ideas, ahh the joy of chess!


    One of my favourite things Danielsen says on one of his videos is, when commenting on playing an opening like 1. a3 (I think)

    "If you want to play something like a3, then maybe you should read some beginner books. Or get your school money back"