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Bishop + Knight endgame

Standard membertvochess
Only Chess 23 Aug '12 11:02
  1. Standard membertvochess
    Joined
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    23 Aug '12 11:02
    Hey forum,

    I was looking into bishop+knight endgame. These can be practised online: e.g. http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-training/bishop-knight-checkmate.php

    Wikipedia mentions two ways to deal with them:
    - Philidor's W method
    - Deletang's triangle method

    Does anybody know how this W-method works? I couldn't find a good explanation, or do I just have to memorize all the moves?

    I succeeded once in checkmating with the triangle method, but I find it hard to move on to the next triangle. Is there a standard way to do this?

    Would you be able to checkmate with bishop/knight/king OTB?
  2. L
    Standard memberLordOfTheChessboard
    Joined
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    7902
    23 Aug '12 11:19
    Originally posted by tvochess
    Hey forum,

    I was looking into bishop+knight endgame. These can be practised online: e.g. http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-training/bishop-knight-checkmate.php

    Wikipedia mentions two ways to deal with them:
    - Philidor's W method
    - Deletang's triangle method

    Does anybody know how this W-method works? I couldn't find a good explanation, or do I jus ...[text shortened]... ere a standard way to do this?

    Would you be able to checkmate with bishop/knight/king OTB?
    I never really learned it, I figured that if I would get such an endgame during a blitz game I would just try to win on time. 😛 If I would get it during a longer game I should be able to figure it out over the board. I heard Judith polgar never learned it ether, and figured it out over the board the first time it arose in a game of hers. Of course I'm no Judith Polgar.

    I think the idea is to memorise the position and moves, I know it's explained in Karsten Muller's endgame manual.
  3. Standard membertvochess
    Joined
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    23 Aug '12 11:57
    The possibility of coming across this endgame is very low and wasn't the reason why I looked into it. It's just that I like puzzles.

    Also, it was mentioned on this forum as a good way to learn how the minor pieces coordinate with each other and the king.

    It doubt you would figure it out OTB. It can take up to 33 moves before checkmate, so there's not much room for beginners mistakes as a draw is waiting on move 50.
  4. Subscribergreenpawn34
    e4
    Joined
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    42492
    23 Aug '12 12:362 edits
    Wiki does have a reasonable piece on it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_and_knight_checkmate

    It has been discussed a few times on here.

    Thread 132547 Has some RHP examples of player doing it (and some not.)

    The technique is to force the King into the same corner that the Bishops covers.
    If you have a light squared Bishop then it is either h1 or a8
    If you have a dark squared Bishop then it is either a1 or h8

    I think as long as you know this then the 'W' and 'D' method is not needed.
    You have no need to get it a 100% correct, just so long as you do it.
    You have 50 moves. Just so long as you know the technique.

    Wike has two examples. First the infamous game:

    Robert Kempinski - Vladimir Epishin, Germany 2001

    Where Black, a Grandmaster(!) failed to do it OTB.

    Invert BoardPGNHeaders


    The other wiki example is by a rather talented young lady, Judit Polgar,
    who played out the mate in a blindfold tournament.

    Ljubomir Ljubojevic - Judit Polgar, Monaco 1994.

    Invert BoardPGNHeaders
  5. Standard membertvochess
    Joined
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    23 Aug '12 12:50
    Hi,

    I read the wikipedia article and saw the examples. However, looking at the games, I miss the reasoning behind a lot of the moves. Therefore, I was trying to understand the two methods mentioned.

    However, the W-method just shows some moves, no reasoning. The triangle method is more clear and it seems to work by trial-and-error. It's clear how to restrict the king's moves within those triangles, but not how to force the king into the next smaller triangle.

    Maybe I should try to analyze Judith Polgar's game? Although she didn't use a standard method, as LordOfTheChessboard indicated she figured it out OTB.
  6. L
    Standard memberLordOfTheChessboard
    Joined
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    23 Aug '12 13:15
    Originally posted by tvochess
    Hi,

    I read the wikipedia article and saw the examples. However, looking at the games, I miss the reasoning behind a lot of the moves. Therefore, I was trying to understand the two methods mentioned.

    However, the W-method just shows some moves, no reasoning. The triangle method is more clear and it seems to work by trial-and-error. It's clear how to ...[text shortened]... h she didn't use a standard method, as LordOfTheChessboard indicated she figured it out OTB.
    You could try playing some of those positions against the computer until you get it.
  7. FL
    Standard memberFat Lady
    Joined
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    23 Aug '12 15:29
    Or you could try using this online trainer:
    http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-training/bishop-knight-checkmate.php
  8. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
    Fort Gordon
    Joined
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    24 Aug '12 04:50
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Wiki does have a reasonable piece on it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_and_knight_checkmate

    It has been discussed a few times on here.

    Thread 132547 Has some RHP examples of player doing it (and some not.)

    The technique is to force the King into the same corner that the Bishops covers.
    If you have a light squared Bishop t ...[text shortened]... . Kh1 Ne3 105. Kh2 Nf1+ 106. Kh1 Bf3[/pgn]
    The Grandmaster was trying to mate in the wrong color corner. He must have forgotten.
  9. S
    Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    2014.05.01
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    24 Aug '12 05:29
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The Grandmaster was trying to mate in the wrong color corner. He must have forgotten.
    I'm pretty sure he knew that. You generally can't stop them from going to the wrong corner at first. Since the defender also knows it's the wrong corner, then that's where they'll head if you force them to the edge. The part he seemed to forget was how to force him across to the other corner.
  10. Standard membertvochess
    Joined
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    24 Aug '12 08:18
    Originally posted by Fat Lady
    Or you could try using this online trainer:
    http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-training/bishop-knight-checkmate.php
    RU joking? look at my first post 😉
  11. Standard membertvochess
    Joined
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    24 Aug '12 08:21
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    I'm pretty sure he knew that. You generally can't stop them from going to the wrong corner at first. Since the defender also knows it's the wrong corner, then that's where they'll head if you force them to the edge. The part he seemed to forget was how to force him across to the other corner.
    That's where i got stuck as well.

    I'm still curious whether anyone here masters the technique and would be confident to carry it out OTB?
  12. FL
    Standard memberFat Lady
    Joined
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    24 Aug '12 08:59
    Originally posted by tvochess
    RU joking? look at my first post 😉
    Whoops. Sorry about that, I only have a half-hour memory.
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