Brilliant Checkmate

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Beautiful!

How some people simultaniously:

- See that many moves ahead

- While making moves that are counterintuitive

- And seeing it live during an actual game.

That would be extremely hard to see even if it was a puzzle: "White to move and checkmate." I so wish I could see stuff like that during a game.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
How some people simultaniously:

- See that many moves ahead

I'm going to respectfully say that it's nice but nothing really special. Here's why...

Firstly, there are some common patterns at work. For example, I'm familiar with something like:



Black to play.

As a pattern, I recognise this form of attacking a "missing fianchetto bishop" position. So it helps a lot to have a known pattern to aim for.

Secondly, there's the actual calculation and it pays to look at the most forcing moves (a common piece of advice that Greenpawn likes to remind us of - check all checks!). So in the initial position, Black has 3 checking moves - 2 of which lose the queen for nothing. After, exf3, Black has two checking moves (again, one is quite easy to dismiss). And after Kxf1, Black has only two checking moves, one of which loses the rook for nothing. So, in summary, by "checking all checks" there's not too much to work through. Ok, maybe some other promising moves may muddy the picture somewhat, but the mainline is quite close to the most forcing line.

Pattern recognition and some calculation fundamentals at work. 🙂

Originally posted by Varenka
I'm going to respectfully say that it's nice but nothing really special. Here's why...

Firstly, there are some common patterns at work. For example, I'm familiar with something like:

[fen]4r1k1/8/q7/8/6b1/6P1/5P1P/5RK1[/fen]

Black to play.

As a pattern, I recognise this form of attacking a "missing fianchetto bishop" position. So it helps a lo ...[text shortened]... st forcing line.

Pattern recognition and some calculation fundamentals at work. 🙂

If you take a look at the starting posiiton you and ponder a little longer you will understand what is so brilliant. The genius is not an unusual patter(although a queen sac in two variations is unusual) its that he saw this when all some moves before including the fact that the queen sac is still on even if black refuses the knight, this is evidenced by the fact that his queen is on such an akward yet threatening square. You also must admit that the pure mate with the knight and bishop is not a common pattern at all... I doubt you would see that mate in any of your future games even if you went on to become world champion.

For some reason that one I saw a lot quicker.

Queen takes - King takes - Bishop check (only one move) - rook mate on the back rank.

Originally posted by tomtom232
If you take a look at the starting posiiton you and ponder a little longer you will understand what is so brilliant. The genius is not an unusual patter(although a queen sac in two variations is unusual) its that he saw this when all some moves before including the fact that the queen sac is still on even if black refuses the knight, this is evidenced by t ...[text shortened]... ou would see that mate in any of your future games even if you went on to become world champion.

I have to agree that there's a lot more going on, especially the part where he sees the alternative combo after the knight check.

Seeing your game there's no way I would have seen that, even if someone told me to look for a mating pattern. In contrast I was able to see mating pattern rather quickly in the puzzle Varenka posted.

Originally posted by tomtom232
If you take a look at the starting posiiton you and ponder a little longer you will understand what is so brilliant.

If you think it's brilliant, nobody can deny you that - it's subjective. And I agree, that mating with N at f3, B at h3 is probably more unusual than reversed with White king on h1 (and B@f3 cannot be captured). But I was still able to be motivated by similar patterns.

Also, as I said, the moves are check, check, check... until a checkmate. I personally find it harder when more non-forcing moves are involved. But hey, we're all different.

For what it's worth, here's a recent example of what I find brilliant...



Black to play.

I think what's happening here is TomTom and I are low level players, whereas Varenka is rated just under 2000.

To him it's not that big of a deal. But if I pulled that off I would save that game and hang it on my refrigerator.

Originally posted by Varenka
If you think it's brilliant, nobody can deny you that - it's subjective. And I agree, that mating with N at f3, B at h3 is probably more unusual than reversed with White king on h1 (and B@f3 cannot be captured). But I was still able to be motivated by similar patterns.

Also, as I said, the moves are check, check, check... until a checkmate. I personall brilliant...

[fen]r4r1k/6pp/2qp4/1R2p3/pPP1Pn2/P2BQP2/3N1K1P/8 b[/fen]

Black to play.

Yes, I understand the check check check point you are making... I wish I could see the moves that led to the starting position that must have been more complex. This game I believe won first brilliancy prize at the 1982 world cup or maybe it came a close second... the master behind the pieces was Timman and the other candidate to win the prize was Karpov.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
I think what's happening here is TomTom and I are low level players

I initially responded to your "amazement" at how anyone can see "that many moves ahead" but I wasn't trying to say "oh, it's easy for me". Instead I tried to show that it's an example of pattern recognition and fundamental calculation in action. I simply believe that with enough tactics practice, the initial position will be solvable by many players.

Originally posted by Varenka
I initially responded to your "amazement" at how anyone can see "that many moves ahead" but I wasn't trying to say "oh, it's easy for me". Instead I tried to show that it's an example of pattern recognition and fundamental calculation in action. I simply believe that with enough tactics practice, the initial position will be solvable by many players.

No explanation required. I didn't interpret your post in a negative way. I took it the way you meant it.

I really need to start doing tactical puzzles again, becuase my play has gotten worse after taking months off.

Originally posted by Varenka
I initially responded to your "amazement" at how anyone can see "that many moves ahead" but I wasn't trying to say "oh, it's easy for me". Instead I tried to show that it's an example of pattern recognition and fundamental calculation in action. I simply believe that with enough tactics practice, the initial position will be solvable by many players.

It's not that the mate is hard to see from the starting position(I spotted the first pattern almost instantly but was taken by surprise when they said he didn't accept the sac. I then paused the video and found the second pattern in about a minute)... I'm just saying the creativity it took to see the second pattern from far off with enough confidence to work towards it(giving up a pawn in the proccess, if you noticed Timman is a pawn down)without floundering around is quite brilliant, in my opinion of course. 🙂

Originally posted by tomtom232
if you noticed Timman is a pawn down)without floundering around is quite brilliant, in my opinion of course. 🙂

In your initial position posted here, you put an extra Black rook on a8 !!😀 Now it's beginning to make sense.... 🙂

Originally posted by Varenka
In your initial position posted here, you put an extra Black rook on a8 !!😀 Now it's beginning to make sense.... 🙂

Aha! wow that makes things quite different doesn't it. anyway I'm prone to spurt a few brilliancies of my own.... Its not finished so you can't comment but I've been waiting what seems like forever to post it. If anybody is interested in the rest of the moves they should bookmark it.

Game 8446023

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
I really need to start doing tactical puzzles again, becuase my play has gotten worse after taking months off.

I recently created a website with a lot of tactical puzzles. I have a free newsletter where you will get a tactical puzzle in the email about every other day. All of the puzzles are originals (not taken from Fred Reinfeld books or something), and all are taken from real class player games - many from RHP.

I also have several back issues posted for a column that I write for the Colorado Chess Informant containing tactics problems from games played in Colorado - I am posting a new back issue each Friday.

The website is http://tacticstime.com, and I hope it is helpful to you.

Cheers,
Tim