Caro-Kann advance 3...c5 advice or thoughts?

Any thoughts on what to play as black after white plays 5.Bb5 in the 3...c5 variation of the Caro-Kann advance? Somebody brought this up and I can not find it in a book or database. Fritz recommends 5...Qa5, allowing white to double up black's pawns. Perhaps giving up the bishop pair and giving black an open B-file is good comp? Plus it can put white's pieces on awkward squares. Any thoughts?

I don't really know what you mean when you say "the 3...c5 variation," but I am going to take a guess that you mean 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4.Nc3 Nc6 since you didn't give either 5.Bb5 or 5...Qa5 as checks. I can't be sure though because white has quite a bit of options on his fourth move. I guess what I'm asking is for you to clarify. Now if the line I have given is correct the moves the plan that seems to jump out is ....Bd7 ...e6 which threatens ...cxd4 allowing black the initiative. For example, 5.Bb5 Bd7 6.Nf3 e6 now white has to deal with the threat and cannot castle and weak moves to protect the d pawn like 7.Ne2?? Give black very good play and the slightly better 7.Be3 will at least allow black to equalize. In conclusion it would appear that 7.dxc5 Bxd5 8.0-0 is the best white has to offer but black can post his rook on c8 and finish developing to have himself a good game.black will also have the advance ...d4 in his back pocket.

Originally posted by tomtom232
I don't really know what you mean when you say "the 3...c5 variation," but I am going to take a guess that you mean 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4.Nc3 Nc6 since you didn't give either 5.Bb5 or 5...Qa5 as checks. I can't be sure though because white has quite a bit of options on his fourth move. I guess what I'm asking is for you to clarify. Now if the line I ...[text shortened]... ing to have himself a good game.black will also have the advance ...d4 in his back pocket.

Yes you are correct with the variation: 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5. I'm wondering what to play after 4.c3 Nc6 5.Bb5 also (me playing black).

Originally posted by passedpawn22
Any thoughts on what to play as black after white plays 5.Bb5 in the 3...c5 variation of the Caro-Kann advance? Somebody brought this up and I can not find it in a book or database. Fritz recommends 5...Qa5, allowing white to double up black's pawns. Perhaps giving up the bishop pair and giving black an open B-file is good comp? Plus it can put whit ...[text shortened]... pieces on awkward squares. Any thoughts?

[pgn]1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Bb5[/pgn]

5..Qb6 looks nice, it adds pressure to d4 and it provokes Bxc6. After Bxc6 bxc6 white looses his 'good' bishop and your center is strengthend due to the double c pawns (the doubled pawns are strong because it adds an extra pawn to the center and you can get rid of the doubled pawn at anytime i.e cxd4. Also the b file might be useful later)

Mind if I ask what put you off 3... Bf5? That's what I play.

Originally posted by tomtom232
I don't really know what you mean when you say "the 3...c5 variation," but I am going to take a guess that you mean 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4.Nc3 Nc6 since you didn't give either 5.Bb5 or 5...Qa5 as checks. I can't be sure though because white has quite a bit of options on his fourth move. I guess what I'm asking is for you to clarify. Now if the line I ...[text shortened]... ing to have himself a good game.black will also have the advance ...d4 in his back pocket.

Caro Kahn
Advance
3...c5

Seems pretty clear to me.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Caro Kahn
Advance
3...c5

Seems pretty clear to me.

My problem was that he skipped the fourth move so I had no idea what white plays on the fourth move in the "3...c5 variation."

@passed pawn: ...Qa5 looks good since it basically forces white to give up his good bishop and with the exchange on c6 black gets a powerful center.

Originally posted by agentreno
Mind if I ask what put you off 3... Bf5? That's what I play.

I kind of like the c5 move too. It was used by Botvinnik against Tal in the return match. The main problem with (the superior?) Bf5 is all the bloody variations. 3. ... Bf5 4.Nc3 is a real mess. You have to stay pretty booked up just to survive the g4 pawn thrust attack. Some variations are analyzed out the endgame, and the evaluations are always changing. 3. ... c5 is good for this reason. You have to be comfortable with French positions though because black locks in his queen's bishop with e6 a lot of the time.

Yeh I agree those variations can be tough. I don't get Nc3 very often though, and I do have Karpov's excellent Advance variation book for that eventuality 🙂 Funnily enough I keep getting Bd3 after Bf5 which is known to be better for black after Bxd3 Qxd3 e6 followed by the Qb6/a5-a6 manoeuvre.

Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
I kind of like the c5 move too. It was used by Botvinnik against Tal in the return match. The main problem with (the superior?) Bf5 is all the bloody variations. 3. ... Bf5 4.Nc3 is a real mess. You have to stay pretty booked up just to survive the g4 pawn thrust attack. Some variations are analyzed out the endgame, and the evaluations are a ...[text shortened]... th French positions though because black locks in his queen's bishop with e6 a lot of the time.

Yea I know 3...Bf5 is the popular choice, but I like Houska's recommendation in the "Play the Caro Kann" book. 3...Bf5 is committing the bishop to that square and gives white many options (and lots of theory). In playing 3...c5 you are really putting the pressure and question on white. There's no really safe way to meet it. If white takes, he messes up his pawn structure and black can start putting major pressure on the center. Note, however, that 4.dxc5 is the number 1 choice after 3...c5, so it is definitely playable, but can lead to a messy game, and white can find his center under a lot of pressure if he is not careful. If white tries to meet it "safely" with 4.c3 then black plays 4...Nc6 hitting the center/pawn. Now if white plays 5.Nf3, then black plays 5...Bg4! In this case g4 is the stronger square for the light square bishop putting more pressure on d4, and exchanging the bishop for the knight isn't bad since knights are normally stronger in closed positions. Basically your holding off development of the light square bishop to see which square is optimal depending on what white plays. It leads to interesting positional play where black gets many chances to put pressure on the white's position. It differs from the french because you are not locking in that light square bishop, you are just waiting to see if it belongs on g4 or f5. I like the optional kind of play!

I won't go through all the variations she talks about since this post was about white playing 5.Bb5 pinning the knight. Someone at the club mentioned this move and it's not mentioned in Houska's book, and it was only played once in my database. I think either 5...Qa5, or Qb6 is fine for black. 5...Qa5 is probably what I'd go with for reasons mentioned above. I don't mind doubling the pawns since white is giving up the bishop pair and the doubled pawns does strengthen the center. The open b-file can come into play nicely as well. Plus, depending on how play proceeds a pawn trade in the center takes care of the doubled pawns and clears the way for c5 being protected by the queen or after e6 is played. The positions don't look bad at all for black, he has a dynamic position, and a long term plus with the two bishops, leaving a tons of good plans and play.

I have had that houska book on order for 2 months now with amazon. still wiating.

I have an old suetin book on the defence which gives c5 a ?! how attitudes change.

My advice is to buy the excellent Caro-Kann Defence; Advance Variation and Gambit System by Karpov.

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
My advice is to buy the excellent Caro-Kann Defence; Advance Variation and Gambit System by Karpov.

Seconded, this book is really good, if a little light on explanation. Of course the book isn't meant to explain strategies, just give lots of analysis so this can't really be a criticism.

I deviated a little from the original topic so I think I should give the OP my opinion on his original question, but I'll maintain that I've had much more success with Bf5.

Having had a look at some games in this line, they appear to end up fairly french-like, with Black playing Bd7 and e6. Breaking up the pawns has never caused me many problems in other Caro-Kann lines, where I've found it relatively easy to liquidate the weakness by playing c5 after dxc5 or c4. I'm no french expert but I'm sure White would rather have his bishop on d3 than b5. Since Bf5 is a bit risky now you've played c5 I'd recommend e6 and allow Bxc6 if they want it.

Why the hell white often play Bd3 and exchange his good bishop for my "bad bishop" I admit I would love to keep it in the field but Playing Bd3, Bxd3 and Qxd3 is a very popular choice, I do everytime I have chance to do it and I don't get nothing, that bishop is not an useless part of my team to me.

This is why I prefer c5, iit let me keep option, where i'll put the bishop...

Originally posted by passedpawn22
Any thoughts on what to play as black after white plays 5.Bb5 in the 3...c5 variation of the Caro-Kann advance? Somebody brought this up and I can not find it in a book or database. Fritz recommends 5...Qa5, allowing white to double up black's pawns. Perhaps giving up the bishop pair and giving black an open B-file is good comp? Plus it can put whit ...[text shortened]... pieces on awkward squares. Any thoughts?

[pgn]1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Bb5[/pgn]

Personally I think Bb5 is a weak move, but that's just me. If you do encounter 5.Bb5 go for 5...Bd7 simple solution. 6.Nf3 e6 7.Bxc6 Bxc6 followed by 8.0-0 Qb6 preparing cxd4 should put you in the game as black.
Interesting note if instead of 7.Bxc6 White goes for 0-0 directly, Black can counter with 7...Nxe5 and either 8.Bxd7+ Nxd7 or 8.Nxe5 Bxb5 Black wins the extra pawn. Looks like as beginners mistake, but I have come across it many times, since giving up the white square bishop does not look like an obvious choice to everyone.