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  1. Standard member RBHILL
    Acts 13:48
    24 Feb '14 16:43
    What is the point of using them?
    Is it just to make a good game?
    After about 10 moves it is basically over and is unable to be used.
    And at the end of the uses at the middle game it just basically becomes a 50/50 chance of winning.

    Example: http://www.365chess.com/search_result.php?search=1&m=31&n=5087285&ms=c4.c5.Nf3.e6.Nc3.a6.g3.b6.Bg2.Bb7.O-O.Qc7.e4.d6.b3.Nf6.Re1.Be7.Bb2.O-O.d4.cxd4.Nxd4.Nbd7.Qe2.Rfe8.Rad1.Bf8.h3.Rad8.Kh2
  2. 24 Feb '14 17:11 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    What is the point of using them?
    Is it just to make a good game?
    After about 10 moves it is basically over and is unable to be used.
    And at the end of the uses at the middle game it just basically becomes a 50/50 chance of winning.

    Example: http://www.365chess.com/search_result.php?search=1&m=31&n=5087285&ms=c4.c5.Nf3.e6.Nc3.a6.g3.b6.Bg2.Bb7.O-O.Qc7.e4.d6.b3.Nf6.Re1.Be7.Bb2.O-O.d4.cxd4.Nxd4.Nbd7.Qe2.Rfe8.Rad1.Bf8.h3.Rad8.Kh2
    Advantages of using opening databases:

    1. Never fall for an opening trap ever again.

    2. Small chance of winning an entire game without leaving book.

    3. Get a playable middle game, every game, against any opponent.

    4. Studying the opening as you play it improves your knowledge of that opening.

    5. At the end of the database you are given multiple games from that opening. Going over those games will give you ideas for the middlegame.

    6. Inflate your rating so people might think you actually know how to play the game.

    This is what might happen when you don't use opening databases Game 10445463
  3. 24 Feb '14 18:41
    It's also quite easy to get into trouble using a database.
    You follow an apparently winning line in a game where the losing player made a mistake later on, perhaps in the endgame in a thoroughly won position. The results make it seem like a good choice for you when in fact it isn't.
    Vice versa you could ignore a totally playable opening line simply because the losing player made a mistake later on when they had a middlegame advantage.
    Things aren't always as straightforward as they first seem!

    Using consensus database moves seems the most logical. Once it gets down to following a few games from unknowns you really are taking a shot in the dark as to the accuracy of the end results...
  4. 24 Feb '14 20:02
    Originally posted by Zygalski
    It's also quite easy to get into trouble using a database.
    You follow an apparently winning line in a game where the losing player made a mistake later on, perhaps in the endgame in a thoroughly won position. The results make it seem like a good choice for you when in fact it isn't.
    Vice versa you could ignore a totally playable opening line simply becau ...[text shortened]... from unknowns you really are taking a shot in the dark as to the accuracy of the end results...
    You only get into trouble if you see the percentiles as the be all end all of positional judgement. You can easily avoid such situations by clicking ahead a few moves to see what kind of positions you might get. A little thinking for yourself helps a bit too.

    Take this Game 10428469 for example, I used an opening database to get a winning position. Then all I had to do was blow the win and BOOM easy draw.
  5. 25 Feb '14 04:33
    First we must distinguish between Databases and Opening Databases.

    Actual databases containing millions of games are a god send.
    The computer really comes into own here.
    I can search for any tacitcal pattern I wish to discuss and I suddenly have
    100's of games to choose from.

    Openning Databases.

    I can honestly say I have never used one.
    I have used books for games one here looking for a fresh idea I may be
    able to work with in the small print and try to avoid the bold print.

    but never an online DB.

    You don't need them.

    Whose games are they....IM's/GM's.
    ...and of course I play IM's/GM's all the time (NOT).

    They don't tell you anything. Why you made that move etc...etc..
    To blindly start following a GM game without knowing all the wrinkles is
    dodgy because there are 1400 player traps in every openings.
    Traps you won't see in IM/GM games.

    Also as Zyglo pointed out the % are out of skew for dozens of reasons.

    The first game Knightstalker posted that had nothing to do with an opening DB.

    White merrily flaunted opening principles and Knightstalker punished him.

    Good play Knightstalker.
    The lad (hopefully) picked up something about moving bits twice in the
    opening, dropping centre pawns and weakening his King.

    If he had followed some database these very important lessons would have
    skipped past him. You have to get the opening principles stored before you
    even consider using DB's. If not then they will catch up with you.

    This is not them running before they can walk.
    This them running whilst they are still in the womb.

    In the second game. When did White have the won game?

    Was it here after 7.Ne5.


    I don't think so. That is a piece moving twice in the opening.
    You can have that a8 Rook for the three tempi Bishop (g3, Bg2 and Bxa8).

    Very dogmatic, yes. But it has served me well over the years.

    And no guff about the good players know when to break the rule of thumb.

    You are following very good players games, you are not cocking a snoot at
    an established rule on thumb - they are, you are only copying them.

    And I do not care if I am arguing with GM opening theory,
    (is it? I suppose it must be because White has shot his bolt on the Queenside.
    This looks like the only try to maintain an opening + What happens after Bb4+.)

    I hope you had the position after 7.Ne5 on a board and ripped it to
    shreds before playing it. It's the type of opening move you have to
    squeeze dry.

    I'm guessing no. You yourself said. "You then click forward a few moves..."

    Well this must be a new FIDE law.

    "At any given time you can move you opponents pieces forward a few
    moves till you get to a position you like."

    You are a good player Knightstalker, you are getting lazy,
    I read the profile, you say they is nobody local around to challenge you.
    I really do feel for you in that respect, I really do because your may stagnate.
    It must be a terrible position to be in, I really do mean that, it is not a sarky joke.

    You have made the right step coming here.

    But lifting opening moves from an online DB is not helping is it. Be honest now.

    You can be furious with me if you wish but think about it.
    Is that making you a better chess player?

    By now you are thinking why me? Why am I getting it in the neck.

    You yourself said there is no other good chess player around you.
    So there is nobody to tell you or point you in (IMHO) the right direction.
    No other player on your level to discuss the game with.

    Play chess, play your game, play what you want to play.

    Go forward a few moves in your mind or on your board and see if you like the position.
    Don't play what other people play unless you agree with them and your first
    thought here must always be. "what's wrong with that move?" and look
    for a better move, your move.
  6. Standard member RBHILL
    Acts 13:48
    05 Mar '14 23:55 / 1 edit
    When's the last time any of you opened up with a queen on move 2? I think the last time I did was back in 2005. According to Chess databases black has a better winning percentage if white opens with a queen. 1e4 e5 2.Qf3 or Qh5

    Here if black moves his out first has a better winning percentage.
    http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=5&n=3020&ms=e4.e5.Bc4.Qh4&ns=3.5.30.3020
  7. Standard member RBHILL
    Acts 13:48
    18 Mar '14 16:53
    No offense, but it is kind of pathetic for someone to use a database if you are 400 rated points above your opponent.
  8. 21 Mar '14 07:57
    Well, following a "database" which includes an opening, still lets you remember what good or non-good that came during your game if you memorize the game you were playing.

    I did use a database for opening against a particular opponent. However, the database may be small. I chose the opening move in the database and my opponent played a move which led me to check whether or not the move is worth it.

    Until I study more about it and find it useful, I don't need to make that move again 🙂
  9. 21 Mar '14 08:04
    Perhaps, if you are Magnus Carlsen, you might can do without openings. Following opening principles blindly won't necessarily give you a good position either. It may follow opening principles, but still leave you cramped or lead to loss.

    Study is good of course. Examination, and Experimentation of lines of play in thought, are good too.

    But what about memorization of our own games? This too allows memory of what not to do and what worked.
  10. 21 Mar '14 08:08
    P.S. Rated Opponents higher than you are not going to try to teach you either while you are playing them in a rated game. Against people like that you may find that opening principles don't put you in a position that you wish your were in. If you opponent knows more than you do, you may want a good start that you can memorize. And losing all the time is no fun, and you may not know why you lost as well. So, do study. But memorize too.
  11. Standard member SwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    21 Mar '14 15:43
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    No offense, but it is kind of pathetic for someone to use a database if you are 400 rated points above your opponent.
    Why? I'm trying to learn the opening. I don't do that by closing the book.