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  1. 27 Apr '08 16:53
    As most of you should know, a "system" in chess is a method of development in the opening where you try to reach a certain formation, regardless of what your opponents chooses to play...
    For instance, in the Colle System, White will try to end up with this formation: 1. d4 2. e3 3. Nf3 4. Bd3 5. 0-0 6. Re1 7. c3 8. Nbd2 9. e4, but not necessarily following this move order.

    I've read that an advantage of most of these systems is that they're sound, easy to play and don't require you to know a lot of theory (actually, almost no theory at all...)
    What's your opinion? Would you give a try to systems like the Colle, the Stonewall or any other? Or do you you think they're useless against strong opponents?
  2. 27 Apr '08 17:05
    Try this one! From Weyerstrass's early games.
    Game 1682901
  3. 27 Apr '08 17:19
    The Colle System is an excellent opening for beginners. The Colle System teaches the fundamentals of opening theory. George Koltanowski had a television show years ago on PBS. It was a great series. Wish I could get a copy today. He played the Colle System frequently; of course, he also wrote the standard text book on the opening.

    I don't like to play the opening because weaker players can draw against stronger players more frequently. I'm not basing this on statistics, but experience.

    There are several strong players (above 2400) who play this opening frequently (or the Torre System which is very closely associated), including:

    A Onkoud (2420) - Ventzislav V Inkiov (2517) [D05]
    Marseille Chess Festival Marseille (7), 05.07.2006

    1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Nbd2 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.Bd3 Bd6 7.0-0 0-0 8.e4 cxd4 9.cxd4 dxe4 10.Nxe4 Be7 11.Nc3 b6 12.Bg5 Bb7 13.a3 Rc8 14.Rc1 Na5 15.Ne5 h6 16.Be3 Nd5 17.Qh5 Bg5 18.Bxg5 Qxg5 19.Qxg5 hxg5 20.Nxd5 Bxd5 21.Ba6 Rxc1 22.Rxc1 Nb3 23.Rc7 Nxd4 24.Rxa7 f6 25.Nd3 Rd8 26.f3 Nf5 27.Rc7 Bb3 28.Rc3 Nd4 29.Kf2 Kf7 30.Nb4 f5 31.Bc4 Bxc4 32.Rxc4 Nb3 33.Rc2 Kf6 34.Nc6 Rd6 35.Na7 Nd4 36.Rc7 Rd5 37.a4 Ra5 38.Rc4 Nb3 39.Nc6 Rd5 40.Rb4 Nc5 41.Ke2 Rd6 42.Nd4 Rd7 43.Nb3 Nxb3 44.Rxb3 Rd4 45.Rxb6 Rxa4 46.Kd3 g4 47.fxg4 Rxg4 48.g3 g5 49.Rb8 Ra4 50.b4 Ra2 51.Rh8 Ke5 52.b5 Kd5 53.Rd8+ Kc5 54.Re8 Kd6 55.Rd8+ Kc7 56.Re8 Kd7 57.Rh8 Ra4 58.Rh7+ Kd6 59.b6 Rb4 60.b7 g4 61.Kc3 Rb1 62.Kc4 Rb6 63.Rf7 Rb1 64.Rh7 Kc6 65.Re7 Kd6 66.Rh7 ½-½

    Agzamov,G (2535) - Razuvaev,Y (2520)
    Moskou ch-URS Moskou ch-URS (1), 04.1983

    1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5 c5 4.e3 Qb6 5.Qc1 Nc6 6.c3 d5 7.Nbd2 Be7 8.Bd3 h6 9.Bh4 Bd7 10.0-0 Rc8 11.dxc5 Qxc5 12.Qd1 0-0 13.h3 Rfd8 14.Re1 Be8 15.Nd4 Ne5 16.Bc2 Nc6 17.Bd3 Ne5 18.Bc2 Nc6 19.Bd3 ½-½

    Agzamov,G (2590) - Vogt,L (2460)
    Potsdam Potsdam (1), 1985

    1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bg5 Bg7 4.Nbd2 d5 5.e3 0-0 6.c3 b6 7.Bd3 Bb7 8.Qb1 Nbd7 9.0-0 c5 10.b4 Qc8 11.h3 Re8 12.Rc1 e5 13.dxe5 Nxe5 14.Nxe5 Rxe5 15.Bf4 Re8 16.a4 a5 17.bxa5 bxa5 18.Ra2 Bc6 ½-½

    Alexander Chernin (2592) - Viswanathan Anand (2770) [D03]
    Corsica Masters Rapid Bastia (4.3), 31.10.2001

    1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 e6 3.Nd2 h6 4.Bh4 d5 5.e3 Be7 6.Bd3 c5 7.c3 Nc6 8.Ngf3 0-0 9.Qe2 b6 10.0-0 Bb7 11.Ne5 Nxe5 12.dxe5 Ne4 13.Bxe7 Qxe7 14.f4 Nxd2 15.Qxd2 f6 16.exf6 Rxf6 17.Rae1 Raf8 18.e4 dxe4 19.Bxe4 Bxe4 20.Rxe4 Qf7 21.Qe2 e5 22.Rxe5 Rxf4 23.Rxf4 Qxf4 24.g3 Qc1+ 25.Kg2 Qb1 26.a3 Qg6 27.Re7 Rf7 28.Re6 Rf6 29.Rxf6 Qxf6 30.Qe8+ Kh7 31.Qe4+ Kg8 32.Qa8+ Kh7 33.Qxa7 Qc6+ 34.Kg1 Qb5 35.b4 Qd3 36.bxc5 Qe3+ ½-½

    Alexander Moiseenko (2555) - Alik Gershon (2555) [A46]
    4th Rector Cup Kharkiv (5), 2002

    1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5 h6 4.Bh4 c5 5.e3 b6 6.Bd3 Bb7 7.c3 Be7 8.Nbd2 d6 9.Bg3 0-0 10.0-0 Nh5 11.Qe2 Nxg3 12.fxg3 Nd7 13.g4 a5 14.Rad1 Qc8 15.h4 Qd8 16.Qf2 cxd4 17.exd4 a4 18.Qg3 g6 19.a3 Kg7 20.Rde1 Ba6 21.Bxa6 Rxa6 22.h5 g5 23.d5 Nc5 24.Nd4 Bf6 25.Nc6 Qd7 26.Nc4 exd5 27.Nxd6 b5 28.Rxf6 Rxc6 29.Qe5 Kg8 30.Rxh6 f6 31.Rg6+ 1-0

    Alexander Moiseenko (2663) - Loek Van Wely (2648) [A46]
    FIDE World Cup Khanty Mansyisk (2.4), 02.12.2005

    1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 e6 3.Nf3 h6 4.Bh4 c5 5.e3 b6 6.c3 Bb7 7.Nbd2 Be7 8.Bd3 Nc6 9.0-0 0-0 10.Qe2 a6 11.a4 cxd4 12.exd4 Nh5 13.Bg3 Nxg3 14.fxg3 d5 15.g4 Bf6 16.Qf2 g6 17.h4 Bg7 18.Rae1 Qd6 19.Re3 Bc8 20.h5 g5 21.Nxg5 f5 22.Nh3 fxg4 23.Nf4 e5 24.dxe5 Nxe5 25.Qe2 Bd7 26.Ng6 Nxg6 27.Bxg6 Rxf1+ 28.Nxf1 d4 29.Re7 Rf8 30.Ng3 dxc3 31.bxc3 Kh8 32.Qe3 b5 33.axb5 axb5 34.Kh2 Rc8 35.Kg1 Rxc3 36.Qe4 Bd4+ 37.Kf1 Bg7 38.Kg1 Qd4+ 39.Kh2 Qd6 40.Kg1 b4 41.Bf5 Bd4+ 42.Kf1 Bb5+ 43.Ne2 Rc1# 0-1

    Alexey Korotylev (2600) - Anatoli Karpov (2670) [A46]
    World Blitz Cup Moscow RUS (26), 22.11.2007

    1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 e6 3.Nf3 h6 4.Bh4 d5 5.e3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Nbd2 Be7 8.Bd3 b6 9.0-0 Bb7 10.Re1 0-0 11.Ne5 Nxe5 12.dxe5 Nd7 13.Bg3 Qc7 14.f4 c4 15.Bc2 Nc5 16.Nf3 Ne4 17.Nd4 Bc5 18.Qg4 Bxd4 19.exd4 Qd7 20.Bh4 Kh8 21.Re3 Rg8 22.Rh3 Kh7 23.Rf1 Rh8 24.Bf6 Rag8 25.Rff3 Qe8 26.Qg5 Qf8 1-0

    Alexey Korotylev (2600) - Peter Leko (2755) [A46]
    World Blitz Championship Moscow RUS (15), 21.11.2007

    1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5 h6 4.Bh4 c5 5.e3 b6 6.Nbd2 Bb7 7.Bd3 Be7 8.0-0 0-0 9.c3 d5 10.Ne5 Nbd7 11.f4 Ne4 12.Bxe7 Qxe7 13.Qc2 Ndf6 14.Rae1 Rac8 15.f5 exf5 16.Rxf5 Nxd2 17.Qxd2 Rc7 18.Ref1 Bc8 19.R5f4 Be6 20.Qf2 Rcc8 21.Rxf6 Qxf6 22.Qxf6 gxf6 23.Rxf6 Kg7 24.Rf4 cxd4 25.exd4 Rfe8 26.Rf3 Re7 27.Rg3+ Kf8 28.Rf3 Kg7 29.Rg3+ Kh8 30.Rf3 Rg8 31.Kf2 Kg7 32.Rg3+ Kf8 33.Rf3 Rc7 34.g3 Ke7 35.Re3 a6 36.a3 b5 37.Be2 Kd6 38.Nd3 Re7 39.Bf3 Rge8 40.Nf4 f6 41.Bg2 Bf7 42.Rxe7 Rxe7 43.Bf3 a5 44.Ng2 b4 45.axb4 axb4 46.Ne3 Be6 47.cxb4 Rb7 48.Nc4+ Kd7 49.Ne3 Rxb4 50.Nxd5 Rxb2+ 51.Kg1 Bxd5 52.Bxd5 Rd2 53.Bf3 Kd6 54.Bg2 Rxd4 55.Kf2 Rd2+ 56.Kg1 Ke5 57.Bb7 Kf5 58.Bc8+ Kg5 59.Bb7 h5 60.Bc8 h4 61.Be6 Re2 62.Bc8 Rd2 63.Be6 f5 64.gxh4+ Kg4 65.h5 Kf3 66.Bc4 Rd1+ 67.Bf1 Rd6 68.Bg2+ Kg4 0-1

    Alvarez,J (2415) - Herrera,I (2420) [A46]
    Capablanca B Cienfuegos City C Capablanca B Cienfuegos City (11), 1996

    1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5 Be7 4.Nbd2 d5 5.e3 0-0 6.Bd3 Nbd7 7.0-0 h6 8.Bh4 c5 9.c3 ½-½

    Amir Bagheri (2500) - Laurent Fressinet (2638) [D03]
    French Team championship 'TOP 16' Noyon (5), 01.04.2005

    1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c3 g6 4.Bg5 Nbd7 5.Nbd2 Bg7 6.e3 0-0 7.Bd3 b6 8.0-0 Bb7 9.Qb1 c5 10.b4 Qc8 11.Rc1 Bc6 12.a4 c4 13.Be2 Re8 14.b5 Bb7 15.Bh4 a6 16.h3 e6 17.Bg3 Bf8 18.Ne5 Nxe5 19.Bxe5 Nd7 20.Bg3 Bg7 21.Qc2 e5 22.dxe5 Nxe5 23.Nf3 Nxf3+ 24.Bxf3 axb5 25.axb5 Qc5 26.Qb2 h5 27.Rd1 Kh7 28.Bf4 Kg8 29.g4 hxg4 30.hxg4 Ra5 31.Rxa5 bxa5 32.b6 a4 33.Qd2 Qxb6 34.Bxd5 Bxd5 35.Qxd5 Qe6 36.Qf3 a3 37.Ra1 Qa6 38.e4 a2 39.Kg2 Qa3 40.Qe2 Ra8 41.e5 Qa4 42.Qe4 Qa6 43.Qe2 Qb7+ 44.Qf3 Qc8 45.Bg3 Ra6 46.Kh2 Qd7 47.Qe2 Qa4 48.Qd2 Qb3 49.e6 Rxe6 50.Rxa2 Re8 ½-½

    Andriasian Zaven (2508) - Lputian Smbat G (2634) [A47]
    otb otb (1), 14.03.2007

    1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 b6 4.Bd3 Bb7 5.Nbd2 c5 6.c3 Be7 7.0-0 cxd4 8.exd4 0-0 9.Qe2 d6 10.Re1 Nbd7 11.c4 Re8 12.b3 e5 13.Bb2 Bf8 14.Bc2 e4 15.Nh4 d5 16.Nf5 Nb8 17.f3 g6 18.Ne3 exf3 19.Qxf3 Nc6 20.Rad1 Bg7 21.a3 Qc7 22.Qg3 Qxg3 23.hxg3 Nh5 24.Ndf1 Rad8 25.cxd5 Ne7 26.Be4 Nf6 27.Bf3 Nfxd5 28.Nc4 h5 29.a4 Nf5 30.g4 Rxe1 31.Rxe1 hxg4 32.Bxg4 Nxd4 33.Bxd4 Bxd4+ 34.Kh2 Kg7 35.Rd1 Nf6 36.Be2 Ne4 37.Nfe3 a6 38.Rxd4 Rxd4 39.Nxb6 Rb4 40.Nec4 Rxb3 0-1

    Annageldiev,O (2485) - Thipsay,P (2475) [D03]
    op Calcutta IND op Calcutta IND (10), 1996

    1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bg5 Bg7 4.c3 0-0 5.Nbd2 d5 6.e3 Nbd7 7.Bd3 Re8 8.0-0 e5 9.dxe5 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 Rxe5 11.Bh4 Qe8 12.c4 Rh5 13.Bg3 Ne4 14.Nxe4 dxe4 15.Be2 Rc5 16.b4 Bxa1 17.bxc5 Be5 18.Bxe5 Qxe5 19.Qd8+ Kg7 20.f3 Qc3 21.Rf2 exf3 22.Bxf3 Qe1+ 23.Rf1 Qxe3+ 24.Kh1 Qf4 25.g3 Qxc4 26.Bg2 Qc3 27.Qe8 f5 28.Re1 Kh6 29.h4 Bd7 30.Qe7 Qxg3 31.Re3 1-0

    Arbakov,V (2425) - Zilberstein,V (2400)
    ch-URS, semi final Irkutsk (1), 03.1983

    1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bg5 Bg7 4.Nbd2 d5 5.c3 0-0 6.e3 b6 7.Bd3 c5 8.0-0 Ba6 9.Bxa6 Nxa6 10.Ne5 Qe8 11.Qf3 Nc7 12.Qh3 Ne6 13.Bh4 Nd7 14.f4 f5 15.g4 cxd4 16.exd4 Nxe5 17.fxe5 fxg4 18.Rxf8+ Bxf8 19.Qxg4 Ng7 20.a4 Nf5 21.Bg5 e6 22.Qe2 Be7 23.Qg2 Bxg5 24.Qxg5 a5 25.h4 h6 26.Qg4 Ra7 27.Kh2 Rg7 28.Nf3 b5 29.axb5 Qxb5 30.Qg2 Kh7 31.Qd2 Rb7 32.Rb1 a4 33.Qg2 Qd3 34.Ra1 Rf7 35.Re1 Ne3 36.Qh3 Ng4+ 37.Qxg4 Rxf3 38.Rg1 Rf2+ 39.Rg2 Qc2 40.Rxf2 Qxf2+ 41.Kh3 Qf1+ 42.Kh2 Qf2+ 43.Kh1 Qf5 44.Qg2 Qf4 45.Qc2 Qxh4+ 46.Kg2 Qg4+ ½-½

    Armas,J (2405) - Hernandez,Gi (2525) [A48]
    Carlos Torre mem, Merida MEX Carlos Torre mem, Merida MEX (8)

    1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bg5 Bg7 4.Nbd2 0-0 5.c3 d6 6.e3 c5 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.0-0 h6 9.Bxf6 exf6 10.Qc2 f5 11.dxc5 dxc5 12.Rfd1 Qc7 13.a4 Bd7 14.e4 fxe4 15.Bxe4 Be6 16.Nf1 Rad8 17.Ne3 Ne7 18.Rxd8 Rxd8 19.Rd1 b6 20.Rxd8+ Qxd8 21.Nd2 Kf8 22.Bd3 Nd5 23.Nxd5 Bxd5 24.Be4 Be6 25.Qd3 Qxd3 26.Bxd3 Ke7 27.Kf1 g5 28.h3 f5 29.f3 h5 30.Be2 Be5 31.Bb5 Bf4 32.Ke1 Bd5 33.Be2 Kf6 34.Bb5 g4 35.hxg4 fxg4 36.Ke2 g3 37.Ne4+ Ke5 38.b4 cxb4 39.cxb4 Be6 40.a5 h4 41.Kf1 Be3 0-1

    Armas,J (2465) - Mitkov,N (2475) [A46]
    Capablanca mem-B Capablanca mem-B (3), 1995

    1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 e6 3.Nd2 c5 4.e3 h6 5.Bh4 Be7 6.Ngf3 0-0 7.Bd3 b6 8.c3 Bb7 9.Qe2 d6 10.0-0 Nbd7 11.Rfd1 Re8 12.e4 Nh5 13.Bxe7 Qxe7 14.g3 Red8 15.e5 cxd4 16.exd6 Qxd6 17.Be4 d3 18.Qe3 Nc5 19.Nc4 Qc7 20.Bxb7 Qxb7 21.Nfe5 Qd5 22.b4 b5 23.Na5 Rdc8 24.bxc5 Rxc5 25.Nb3 Rxc3 26.Rxd3 Rxd3 27.Nxd3 Nf6 28.Nf4 Qc4 29.Rc1 Qa4 30.Qe2 Rd8 31.Rc7 Ne8 32.Rc5 a6 33.h3 Nd6 34.Rc7 Qa3 35.Kg2 a5 36.Nd4 Qa4 37.Nc6 Re8 38.Ra7 b4 39.Nxa5 Nb5 40.Ra6 Nc7 41.Ra7 Nb5 42.Rb7 Nd6 43.Rb6 e5 44.Nh5 Re6 45.Nc4 Qa8+ 46.Kg1 Qd5 47.Qg4 g6 48.Nxd6 Kh7 49.Ne8 1-0

    Arsen Yegiazarian (2531) - Arman Pashikian (2472) [D05]
    66th Armenian Championship Yerevan (1), 16.03.2006

    1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 e6 3.e3 d5 4.Bd3 Bd6 5.0-0 0-0 6.Nbd2 c5 7.c3 Nbd7 8.Re1 b6 9.e4 dxe4 10.Nxe4 Be7 11.Bf4 Bb7 12.Nd6 Qc7 13.dxc5 Nxc5 14.Nxb7 Qxf4 15.Nxc5 Bxc5 16.Qe2 Rfd8 17.Rad1 Ng4 18.Rf1 Rd5 19.g3 Qh6 20.b4 Bxf2+ 21.Rxf2 Nxf2 22.Kxf2 Rad8 23.c4 R5d7 24.c5 bxc5 25.bxc5 g6 26.c6 Rd5 27.c7 Rc8 28.Ba6 Rxc7 29.Rxd5 exd5 30.Qe5 Rc2+ 31.Be2 Qf8 32.Qxd5 Qe7 33.Nd4 Rd2 34.Qc4 Qe4 35.Qc8+ Kg7 36.Ne6+ Qxe6 0-1

    Backwinkel,P (2410) - Maus,So (2420) [A45]
    BL 9394 ;BL 90 BL 9394 ;BL 90 (202), 1994

    1.d4 Nf6 2.c3 b6 3.Bg5 Bb7 4.Bxf6 exf6 5.Nd2 f5 6.e3 g6 7.Ngf3 Bg7 8.Bd3 Qe7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Re1 d5 11.b4 Nd7 12.Nb3 Nf6 13.Nfd2 Ne4 14.Nxe4 fxe4 15.Bf1 f5 16.g3 g5 17.a4 a6 18.a5 Rf6 19.b5 axb5 20.Bxb5 Raf8 21.a6 Ba8 22.Be2 f4 23.Qd2 Qe6 24.Rec1 h5 25.Qd1 fxe3 26.fxe3 Qh3 27.Qe1 g4 28.Qf1 Rxf1+ 29.Rxf1 Rf3 30.Bxf3 gxf3 31.Rf2 Bh6 32.Re1 Qd7 0-1

    Bacrot,E (2695) - Grischuk,A (2715) [D03]
    World Blitz Moscow RUS (31), 22.11.2007

    1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5 c5 4.e3 Be7 5.Nbd2 b6 6.c3 Bb7 7.Bd3 d5 8.0-0 Nc6 9.Qe2 0-0 10.Ne5 Nxe5 11.dxe5 Nd7 12.Bxe7 Qxe7 13.f4 f6 14.exf6 Rxf6 15.e4 c4 16.Bc2 Raf8 17.g3 e5 18.exd5 Qc5+ 19.Qf2 exf4 20.Ne4 Qxd5 21.Rad1 fxg3 22.Qxg3 Rxf1+ 23.Rxf1 Rxf1+ 24.Kxf1 Qf5+ 25.Qf2 Qh3+ 26.Ke1 Qe6 27.Qd4 h6 28.Kd2 Bd5 29.Ng3 Ne5 30.Qf4 Nf3+ 31.Kc1 Qe1+ 32.Bd1 Ne5 33.Qf5 Bf7 34.Qc8+ Kh7 0-1

    Bagheri,A (2405) - Yermolinsky,A (2625) [D03]
    Elista olm Elista olm (1), 29.09.1998

    1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5 c5 4.e3 d5 5.Nbd2 Be7 6.c3 Nbd7 7.Bd3 Q...
  4. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    27 Apr '08 17:41 / 3 edits
    I play leningrad dutch with both colors, and it's absolutely worth it for an inexperienced player like me. it teaches you the basic ideas in the typical positions, which is far more important than specific variations. EVERY opening should be learned like that instead of memorizing variations, but as beginners we usually get lost in the sea of variations instead, because we don't HAVE the basic ideas down cold yet.

    when you're in an opening, you should react like "oh, e3, now he can check with Qh5+ and I need to be ready for it" and take measures against it if necessary, instead of reacting "oh, e3, after that comes Nf6" without thinking why the Nf6 is appropriate.

    memorizing things is possible, but very inefficient way for our brain to store information because the memory works by association rather than just storing random strings of moves with no special meaning. when you have a reason for a move, the move order doesn't matter. but when you memorize variations, the slightest transposition or deviation breaks your game.

    you can try it by inserting a random a3 into an opening, and observe a memorizing opponent fall to pieces instead of gaining that slight advantage the loss of a tempo should give him. it's also visible when you take any low rated player out of db in CC.


    the downside is that systems are generally easy to play against. the lack of variations goes both ways, and your opponent doesn't have to know that much to get a playable position. but then again, once the opening ends, the one with more understanding about the arising positions will have an advantage.
  5. 27 Apr '08 17:48
    Originally posted by wormwood
    I play leningrad dutch with both colors, and it's absolutely worth it for an inexperienced player like me. it teaches you the basic ideas in the typical positions, which is far more important than specific variations. EVERY opening should be learned like that instead of memorizing variations, but as beginners we usually get lost in the sea of variations ins ...[text shortened]... should give him. it's also visible when you take any low rated player out of db in CC.
    Absolutely!!!! This is one of the great dangers of systems (even the Dragon). Memorizing can get you in trouble very quickly.
  6. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Gonzalo de Córdoba
    27 Apr '08 17:49
    Originally posted by PedroM
    As most of you should know, a "system" in chess is a method of development in the opening where you try to reach a certain formation, regardless of what your opponents chooses to play...
    For instance, in the Colle System, White will try to end up with this formation: 1. d4 2. e3 3. Nf3 4. Bd3 5. 0-0 6. Re1 7. c3 8. Nbd2 9. e4, but not necessarily following ...[text shortened]... the Stonewall or any other? Or do you you think they're useless against strong opponents?
    Aron Nimzowitch would disagree with your definition of 'System'.
  7. Standard member agentreno
    Addicted
    27 Apr '08 18:14
    An over-reliance on a system opening (the Colle in particular but I apply it to the King's Indian Attack and others) is liable to stunt your understanding of the game - you need to expose yourself to as many different structures as you can.

    If you don't want to learn reams of theory, just follow sensible principles and don't worry about working out the best move that theory can offer - but do avoid sharp openings like the open sicilian where theory is a must if your opponent is prepared.
  8. 27 Apr '08 18:17
    Originally posted by wormwood
    (...) you can try it by inserting a random a3 into an opening, and observe a memorizing opponent fall to pieces instead of gaining that slight advantage the loss of a tempo should give him. it's also visible when you take any low rated player out of db in CC.
    I think memorizing a line would be ok, as long as, at the same time, you understand what you're trying to do.
    For instance, if I want to play the Colle, even if I memorize the moves, I can still know the reason behind them, e.g. "My main goal is to fight for the e4 push, so I'll move my knight to d2, my rook to e1 and my bishop to d3. Ohh, and in terms of strategy I'll look for a King side attack, so my bishop on d3 is really well placed for a possible sacrifice on h7...".
    I guess if we understand this basic stuff of a system or general opening, we can meet reasonably any "strange" move from our opponent.
  9. 27 Apr '08 18:30
    Originally posted by Zweite
    Try this one! From Weyerstrass's early games.
    Game 1682901
    Humm... Nice game, but it's "only" a French Defense. Where do you see the connection with a system?
  10. 27 Apr '08 19:37 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by PedroM
    I think memorizing a line would be ok, as long as, at the same time, you understand what you're trying to do.
    For instance, if I want to play the Colle, even if I memorize the moves, I can still know the reason behind them, e.g. "My main goal is to fight for the e4 push, so I'll move my knight to d2, my rook to e1 and my bishop to d3. Ohh, and in terms of st a system or general opening, we can meet reasonably any "strange" move from our opponent.
    I beat our former state champion years ago with black against the Smith-Morra in 9 moves; I never made a conscious thought. The line was a memorized trap. So I shouldn't say memorization is meaningless. You can win a lot of blitz games that way. It is good to know, but you will not be able to use it in the vast majority of the games you play. Your time is much better spent learning the endgame, because you can't get there if you don't know where you are going.
  11. 27 Apr '08 20:17
    Originally posted by petrovitch
    I beat our former state champion years ago with black against the Smith-Morra in 9 moves; I never made a conscious thought. The line was a memorized trap. So I shouldn't say memorization is meaningless. You can win a lot of blitz games that way. It is good to know, but you will not be able to use it in the vast majority of the games you play. Your tim ...[text shortened]... pent learning the endgame, because you can't get there if you don't know where you are going.
    I think I know the trap you mean, I saw our national champ get nailed by it a few years ago.
  12. 27 Apr '08 20:58 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by wormwood
    I play leningrad dutch with both colors, and it's absolutely worth it for an inexperienced player like me. it teaches you the basic ideas in the typical positions, which is far more important than specific variations. EVERY opening should be learned like that instead of memorizing variations, but as beginners we usually get lost in the sea of variations ins s, the one with more understanding about the arising positions will have an advantage.
    Few would consider a 2000 a beginner
  13. 27 Apr '08 21:39
    Originally posted by demonseed
    I think I know the trap you mean, I saw our national champ get nailed by it a few years ago.
    I can't remember the player's name, but it was first played in Yugoslavia about 1992/1993. I think they called it the Siberian trap on chesslecture.com, but it didn't have a name when I played it.

    In 1976 I played a trap against MackHack the Greenblatt program that Fischer later played in 1978. I was in my first year of college. We had a master from Pennsylvania playing the computer so our school newspaper was covering the event. He drew and I announced mate in 6 playing the famous game by Edgar Colle himself 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 e6 4. Bd3 c5 5. c3 Bd6 6. Nbd2 Nc6 7. 0-0 0-0 8. e4 Nxe4 9. Nxe4 exe4 10. Bxe4 Bd7? 11. Bxh7+ Kxh7 12. Ng5+ Kg8 (white announces mate) 13. Qh5 Re8 14. Qxf7+ Kh8 15. Qh5+ Kg8 16. Qh7+ Kf8 17. Qh8+ Ke7 18. Qxg7#

    So I can claim victory to two games out of, maybe, 35000, in 30 years (actually, maybe a two hundred wins counting blitz, i.e., 200/35000 is still very small). My conclusion is that my time was not very well spent. Chess players waste more time memorizing opening lines than any other thing. The time I've spent on endgame is at least 1000:1 more effective. This is just a figure of speech. I'd love to see the real statistics. And I may be able to compute them very soon. We've already played more than 37,000 games with students in our project (Personal Chess Training). We're gathering a large amount of data that should wield great results statistically. How do people react and why? Why are some problem more difficult to understand than others? How much trainingis necessary to go from a basic understanding of how to solve a problem to recognizing how to get there in a real game? We will know many of these answers very soon.
  14. 27 Apr '08 21:43
    Originally posted by chesskid001
    Few would consider a 2000 a beginner
    Einstein once said, "The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know." Socrates once said something to the effect that, "The only thing I know, is that I know nothing." And as far as discounting a "new way" simply because we heard it first from someone who is presently less experienced or less effective than us, we'll do well to remember the adage; "Wise men learn more from fools than fools ever learn from wise men!"

    So we are all beginners until we reach 2200; then we start learning. We're just learning how to learn.
  15. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    27 Apr '08 22:38
    Originally posted by chesskid001
    Few would consider a 2000 a beginner
    well I feel like I know next to nothing about anything else excluding tactics. and my tactics are nothing to write home about either, they're just ahead of other areas of my game. - and I'm only 1900, not 2000...