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  1. 27 Mar '08 20:41 / 1 edit
    I'm sure that at some point someone has asked this question, or raised this discussion, but as a recent acquirer of Fritz 11 and Chessmaster Grandmaster Edition (11 I think also,) I am curious as to the relative positives and negatives to the two of them are. I've never had a chess program like either of these before a week or two ago, but I've found Fritz great for analysis and database position finding, but Chessmaster has a load of lessons and such with it that might (that's a big fat might) help me get better at the game.

    What do you think? Or if you have any tricks, tips, etc for how to use either of them to their best ability, I'd appreciate those as well.

    Edit - To their best abilities does not include cheating - I meant learning. The "final curtain" thread that I saw as soon as I posted this made me feel tainted.
  2. Standard member ivan2908
    SelfProclaimedTitler
    27 Mar '08 21:08 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by st00p1dfac3
    I'm sure that at some point someone has asked this question, or raised this discussion, but as a recent acquirer of Fritz 11 and Chessmaster Grandmaster Edition (11 I think also,) I am curious as to the relative positives and negatives to the two of them are. I've never had a chess program like either of these before a week or two ago, but I've found Fr ng. The "final curtain" thread that I saw as soon as I posted this made me feel tainted.
    Definetly take chessmaster and when you pass tutorial and graduate Academy and all drills and you get to say 1800 then take Fritz.

    Fritz has huge game database and much wider opening book, not to mention real analyzing tools (pretty bad in chessmaster but that is not your priority now, at least I think).. But leave that for later.

    Chessmaster tutorials contain :

    Two Different academies (edit : three)
    Endgame exam
    Opening exam
    Rating exams (countless drills)
    Mate in one, undefended pieces, forks, skewers, pins, checkmate in 1 or 2, all of that under time attack.
    Blindfold drills (follow the game, memorize position etc.)

    Opposition drills, mate with K vs. Q, K vs. R and K vs. two bishops drills (very user friendly)

    Match the Masters advanced feature (too advanced for my taste at the moment)
    John Nunn's compilation of 50 ridiculousy difficult puzzles

    Compilation of famous games (annotated)

    And that is not all, but I can remember all drills and tutorials at the moment.


    EDIT : Oh, now I've read that you already bought two of them. Great ! But start with Chessmaster grandmaster and use Fritz for opening database (do not forget to switch off engine though )

    Are you some strange kind of SpongeBob ? Nice avatar
  3. 27 Mar '08 21:37
    Originally posted by ivan2908
    Definetly take chessmaster and when you pass tutorial and graduate Academy and all drills and you get to say 1800 then take Fritz.

    Fritz has huge game database and much wider opening book, not to mention real analyzing tools (pretty bad in chessmaster but that is not your priority now, at least I think).. But leave that for later.

    Chessmaster tutoria ...[text shortened]... et to switch off engine though )

    Are you some strange kind of SpongeBob ? Nice avatar
    Nah - not spongebob, I googled stupidface and it's one of the pictures I found. It was grey and black though, so I photoshopped it.

    Thanks for the advice, pretty much what I thought since I installed CM today, it seemed a bit more my speed. Fritz is handy for getting all my games in one big PGN and analysing so I can get told which move was the dumbest of the bunch...
  4. Standard member ivan2908
    SelfProclaimedTitler
    27 Mar '08 21:43
    Originally posted by st00p1dfac3
    Nah - not spongebob, I googled stupidface and it's one of the pictures I found. It was grey and black though, so I photoshopped it.

    Thanks for the advice, pretty much what I thought since I installed CM today, it seemed a bit more my speed. Fritz is handy for getting all my games in one big PGN and analysing so I can get told which move was the dumbest of the bunch...
    I would start with Josh Waitzkin Academy if I were you. Start right from begining , at first you will find it too easy, but it complicates quite fast and it introduces some spectacular positions.
  5. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    27 Mar '08 22:00
    Originally posted by st00p1dfac3
    Nah - not spongebob, I googled stupidface and it's one of the pictures I found. It was grey and black though, so I photoshopped it.

    Thanks for the advice, pretty much what I thought since I installed CM today, it seemed a bit more my speed. Fritz is handy for getting all my games in one big PGN and analysing so I can get told which move was the dumbest of the bunch...
    One thing you could do too is to get a chess book. I'd reccomend "Logical Chess Move by Move". It is just what the title says it is.

    In the beginning when I used CM8K to do my game analysis I was a lot of times unsastified. The thing was that apart from the moves that lost material and CM8K indicated I couldn't understand why at a point in a game he would say something like "Better is Nb4 whiche leads to..." and gave me a long line. Now all of the moves in that given line didn't make any sense to me. I'd try to go through them and I was always like: "But what is this move better than ...?" After a while I grew tired of it and nowadays I mainly use an engine for looking at some complicated positions.

    All of that was just to say that you should try to have some sort of strategical knowledge too. And nowadays most engines give analysis in natural language but many times it isn't enough.

    One other thing that you can/must do is to study tactics. http://www.chesstactics.org/ I think this site is great for doing that. It teaches how to spot and cash in tactical chances.

    And after all of this my final word is for you to study annotated games too. But I think that this is much more enjoyable and fruitful when you already have something to lean on rather that just to start from there.

    Those were my 2c.
  6. 27 Mar '08 22:19
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    One thing you could do too is to get a chess book. I'd reccomend "Logical Chess Move by Move". It is just what the title says it is.

    In the beginning when I used CM8K to do my game analysis I was a lot of times unsastified. The thing was that apart from the moves that lost material and CM8K indicated I couldn't understand why at a point in a game he ...[text shortened]... have something to lean on rather that just to start from there.

    Those were my 2c.
    Thanks for all that, good advice. I've actually gone through three or four books - but the books seem to do the same thing that you say the engines do - they tell you a move is bad "for obvious reason" and then feck off down a line that makes no sense because they don't say why any of the moves are good. Also, I apparently have limited access to books about chess in Ireland - Eason's, Hodges and Figgis, etc. all have very limited chess sections.

    As to CTS - I am actually on there, but it's the same problem - you can be right or wrong, but it never explains WHY you're right or wrong. You can look at the answers, but sometimes it still doesn't make sense. I can't learn by blind following of "this is good" or "this is bad," I need the mechanics of the thing - the thought process.

    There is a fundamental problem with me and chess - I love it, but I am inherently bad at it. I'm looking for something that gives me the whys and wherefores of each move. I want to learn, but it seems to be a difficult proposition without spending ungodly sums of money or making a fool of myself live and in the round.
  7. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    27 Mar '08 22:35
    Originally posted by st00p1dfac3
    Thanks for all that, good advice. I've actually gone through three or four books - but the books seem to do the same thing that you say the engines do - they tell you a move is bad "for obvious reason" and then feck off down a line that makes no sense because they don't say why any of the moves are good. Also, I apparently have limited access to books ...[text shortened]... t spending ungodly sums of money or making a fool of myself live and in the round.
    This site explains you the why of tactics http://www.chesstactics.org/. Give it a try. But "Logical Chess Move by Move" does explain a lot of things. They can't tell us everything because of space problems but a lot of things are explained. One thing though is that when they say that a move is bad for obvious reasons it is something like a 3 move tactics maximum so I guess they we should see these things as exercises for the reader.

    In the beginning I think that tactics are the most needed things so check out that link.

    Probabily I shouldn't say this but if you have difficulty to arrange books there is always things like emule...
  8. Standard member ivan2908
    SelfProclaimedTitler
    27 Mar '08 22:40
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    This site explains you the why of tactics http://www.chesstactics.org/. Give it a try. But "Logical Chess Move by Move" does explain a lot of things. They can't tell us everything because of space problems but a lot of things are explained. One thing though is that when they say that a move is bad for obvious reasons it is something like a 3 move tactic ...[text shortened]... 't say this but if you have difficulty to arrange books there is always things like emule...
    I agree with ever adam has said, but go with Chessmaster tutorials first

    It gives you solid and balanced fundamentals and interest for the game. Also you will get used to the algebraic notation after what you will read chessbooks much easier and faster.

    And do not think that you are an idiot. Chess takes time.
  9. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    27 Mar '08 22:58
    Originally posted by ivan2908
    I agree with ever adam has said, but go with Chessmaster tutorials first

    It gives you solid and balanced fundamentals and interest for the game. Also you will get used to the algebraic notation after what you will read chessbooks much easier and faster.

    And do not think that you are an idiot. Chess takes time.
    Yep the CM8K tutorials helped me a lot in the beginning. It's a very good way to start.
  10. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    27 Mar '08 23:14
    Just to give an example from that site:



    Again the pieces at issue all are protected but aren't equally secure. Black attacks White’s bishop with one of his rooks and he attacks White’s rook with the other. The bishop is protected by a pawn, and so cannot itself be taken with any gain. White’s rook is protected by—his bishop. So first Black takes the bishop with RxB. After White recaptures with his pawn, White’s rook is left to be taken with RxR. To put it more simply: you ask why you cannot play RxR, and see that the rook is protected by the bishop; so you capture the bishop.

    Removing the guard requires you to think backwards. You notice something you might be able to take but see that it has protection. Instead of dismissing the idea as unworkable you ask how the piece is protected and whether you might change that. Thus you never stop with the conclusion that a piece is protected; you always finish the sentence: protected by what?
  11. Standard member ivan2908
    SelfProclaimedTitler
    27 Mar '08 23:23
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    Yep the CM8K tutorials helped me a lot in the beginning. It's a very good way to start.
    You have to see CM8K10K then, even more fancy chess sets
  12. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    27 Mar '08 23:27
    Originally posted by ivan2908
    You have to see CM8K10K then, even more fancy chess sets
    I'm a cheapster . I only got CM8K cause a friend of mine gave it to me. Some time later another friend got me Fritz19 or 9.. and CM10K but I couldn't get them properlly installed. And nowadays I prefer to make analysis mostly by myself so I don't thind I'll install them anytime soon.
  13. 27 Mar '08 23:34
    Originally posted by ivan2908
    You have to see CM8K10K then, even more fancy chess sets
    Well then I'm super fancy - CM11 (Grandmaster Edition.) Of course I also have The Chessmaster on my SNES emulator...

    I also just got Fritz11.

    I never knew anything about either of these - I just see you good at chess people talking about them, so I figured I'd find out if they help. So far - not so much. Of course, it's only been about nine days.

    I have started the tutorials on CM. Some of them are quite boring and too easy, but the defense one for beginners actually learned me a thing or two. Sad, I know, but as I said - math I can do, chess... not really. Still love it though.