Colle-Zukertort and Colle-Koltanowski

Marc Benford View Profile

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15 May '13 17:07

Marc Benford
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06 May '13
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15 May '13 17:07
Hello.

I was thinking of playing the Colle-Zukertort or the Colle-Koltanowski with white in bullet and possibly also in blitz (but in serious long games I don't play crap openings like that). That way I could premove the first 8-10 moves without losing any time.

I would like to know what you think about this. Is it a good idea?

I also hesitate a lot between the Colle-Z and the Colle-K. I perhaps slightly prefer the Colle-Z, but I'm not sure... What are the differences between them ? And which one of them do you recommend me?

And also, I don't know which move order to use... Should I use 1. d4 2. Nf3 3. e3 or 1. d4 2. e3 3. Nf3 ?
I heard that in the Colle it's no good for white when black plays g6 followed by Bg7... And I looked in a database : After 1. d4 Nf6, 2. Nf3 is 40 times more popular than 2. e3 (although I don't know if that's really important, because I will end up playing the other move inevitably right after...) ; but after 2. Nf3 black plays 2... g6 42.86% of the time, while after 2. e3 black plays 2... g6 41.85% of the time.

Oh and lastly, I wanted to find a system that I could play with black, but I didn't find anything interesting... There's the Hippopotamus Defence, but it looks miserable. And there's the Hedgehog, and it looks cool, but it can't be played 100% of the time whatever white plays : it can only arise if we exchange our pawn on c5 for white's pawn on d4.
So can you recommend me another system to play as black?

Thanks in advance.
RJHinds
The Near Genius
Fort Gordon
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15 May '13 19:10
Originally posted by Marc Benford
Hello.

I was thinking of playing the Colle-Zukertort or the Colle-Koltanowski with white in bullet and possibly also in blitz (but in serious long games I don't play crap openings like that). That way I could premove the first 8-10 moves without losing any time.

I would like to know what you think about this. Is it a good idea?

I also hesitate ...[text shortened]... n d4.
So can you recommend me another system to play as black?

Thanks in advance.
I believe robbie carrobie plays that opening a lot, so he might give you advice on the order of the moves. I believe the masters usually play 2.Nf3 first, because it developes a piece and is not as committal as 2.e3. It would still allow the possibilty of transposing into the normal Queen's Gambit Opening with 3.c4. But I am not sure if this is the reason or not, and it might not make any difference, if you already plan to make those moves regardless of Black's response.

I am not sure one can play one set opening defense regardless of how White begins. I think you will have to know at least two defensive lines. For example you could learn the Alekhine Defense in combination with the King's Indian so that you might always be able to reply 1...Nf6.
RJHinds
The Near Genius
Fort Gordon
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15 May '13 20:371 edit
Colle-Zukertort

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=Iu4_7eF-gxg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=rvQeBaXZgEI
greenpawn34
e4
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15 May '13 20:401 edit
I don't think Robbie will be too impressed with:

"(but in serious long games I don't play crap openings like that)"

For bullet chess just make legal moves for 60 seconds and win on time.
You won't have a chance to put in any long time strategic plans that
often comes from the Hippo unless you want to hide behhind that set up
and move a Rook from side to side till you either win or lose on time.
(is that Chess?)

Play what you play in a serous games at least you will know or have
an inclination what is going on.

~~robbie carrobie~~

Joined: 26 Aug '07
Moves: 38239

16 May '13 00:248 edits

Originally posted by Marc Benford
Hello.

I was thinking of playing the Colle-Zukertort or the Colle-Koltanowski with white in bullet and possibly also in blitz (but in serious long games I don't play crap openings like that). That way I could premove the first 8-10 moves without losing any time.

I would like to know what you think about this. Is it a good idea?

I also hesitate n d4.
So can you recommend me another system to play as black?

Thanks in advance.

my man, you have come to Colle heaven, I dont play the Zuk myself, but the Koltanowski I play. The whole trick of the Colle is learning when it works and when to abandon it for something more dynamic. Against a Kingside fianchetto, you must abandon the Colle and play as you would against the Pirc. There are a few Karpov games which begin with e4 but end up with the same Colle formation. The regular Colle, has underwent some evolution and the main line is now termed the phoenix variation and its nothing more than a Meran with reversed colours. As black I play the Colle with reversed colours against d4, thats right baby, its termed the Semi Slav and there are some amazing Anand games. Against e4 I play the Caro Kaan which has the same formation, kind of, thus all my opening problems are solved, i just need to worry about the Bird and the English and laugh at the Polish opening and the Grob. Here is a couple of games I finished recently,

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Greenpawns advice is sound, play what you understand and we shall ignore your irrational outburst against the Colle. Its not a crap opening, its an exceptionally good opening, if you know what you are doing, that is. Attempting to play the Colle on auto pilot is courting disaster, i think you had better look for something else, something that you trust and respect. I have yet to hear a valid reason yet why the Colle should be considered to be inferior. Is the Semi Slav or the Meran as played by the world champion considered inferior, no, then neither should the Colle be.

~~robbie carrobie~~
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16 May '13 00:302 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
I believe robbie carrobie plays that opening a lot, so he might give you advice on the order of the moves. I believe the masters usually play 2.Nf3 first, because it developes a piece and is not as committal as 2.e3. It would still allow the possibilty of transposing into the normal Queen's Gambit Opening with 3.c4. But I am not sure if this is the reason ense in combination with the King's Indian so that you might always be able to reply 1...Nf6.
dude, shut up a yo face!

the conductor (of the magic Colle bus)

~~robbie carrobie~~

Joined: 26 Aug '07
Moves: 38239

16 May '13 00:564 edits

Here is a game i just finished on chess.com, My opponent was from Malaysia, rated 1930 at the time, although I cannot understand why.

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I really dont have a game where i get to play the Colle proper, all my opponents deviate from the norm forcing me to abandon the Colle and head into other waters.

sonhouse
Fast and Curious
slatington, pa, usa
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17 May '13 12:36
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Here is a game i just finished on chess.com, My opponent was from Malaysia, rated 1930 at the time, although I cannot understand why.

[pgn][Event "You just have to C4 yourself! - Board 1"] [Site "Chess.com"] [Date "2013.05.09"] [Round "-"] [White "robbie_1969"] [Black "roslan"] [Result "1-0"] [BlackElo "1925"] [WhiteElo "1971"] [Termination "robbi ...[text shortened]... te from the norm forcing me to abandon the Colle and head into other waters.
What does the colle proper look like then?
RJHinds
The Near Genius
Fort Gordon
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17 May '13 13:18
Originally posted by sonhouse
What does the colle proper look like then?
See the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colle_System
~~robbie carrobie~~
Account suspended
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17 May '13 13:513 edits
Originally posted by sonhouse
What does the colle proper look like then?
I thought you would never ask!

EVENT ?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "-"] [White "N.N."] [Black "N.N."] [Result "*
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[Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "-"] [White "N.N."] [Black "N.N."] [Result "*"] 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.Nbd2 Bd6 7.O-O O-O {this is considered the Colle main line and there are various ways of continuing. Normally white plays as if he was playing the Semi Slav with reversed colours, by taking on c5 and playing e4, but its not very ambitious, but now} 8.dxc5 Bxc5 9.b4 {this is the way we play, a reversed Meran! we are gonna put our bishop on b2, play c4 and our position will be awesome. Those two bishops will be phenomenal, you get an open game with excellent piece play and good attacking chances} *

~~robbie carrobie~~

Joined: 26 Aug '07
Moves: 38239

17 May '13 14:152 edits

Colle actually played the move 9.b4 himself in the 1920's when he beat up future world champion Max Euwe, but it has largely been forgotten. Here is a game from Germany 2004.

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Isn't that a beautiful game of chess?

yarden
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18 May '13 05:11
i konw the baseis of chess for a long time.. and i am new to this place.
never herd of the Colle openings and i must say that ´robbie carrobie´ made a good introdaction to these openings!

thank you! it was a good leasson!
~~robbie carrobie~~
Account suspended
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18 May '13 09:58
Originally posted by yarden
i konw the baseis of chess for a long time.. and i am new to this place.
never herd of the Colle openings and i must say that ´robbie carrobie´ made a good introdaction to these openings!

thank you! it was a good leasson!
you are most welcome 🙂
Elloc
Elloc
Hobart Tasmania
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21 May '13 12:17
I think you are rather mis-informed to call the Colle a "crap" opening.
The Colle System was brought into some prominence by the great Belgian Master, Edgard Colle in the 1920s and is still a widely used opening, especially by club players.
George Koltanowski also promoted it and more recently the American GM Maurice Ashley has used it extensively.
It may not be the most dynamic of openings, but it is quite sound and will be around for a long time yet

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Colle-Zukertort and Colle-Koltanowski