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  1. 07 Dec '06 22:20
    because white always opens first, doesn't that imply if no errors are made then black will always be chasing the game... has anyone ever done any calculations into this... surely white must always hold the advantage because it leads the play
  2. Standard member coentje
    Plop!
    07 Dec '06 22:30
    Originally posted by rooktakesqueen
    because white always opens first, doesn't that imply if no errors are made then black will always be chasing the game... has anyone ever done any calculations into this... surely white must always hold the advantage because it leads the play
    ofcourse not, white is at a disadvantage because he immediatly has to create a weakness in his position
  3. 07 Dec '06 22:31
    Originally posted by rooktakesqueen
    because white always opens first, doesn't that imply if no errors are made then black will always be chasing the game... has anyone ever done any calculations into this... surely white must always hold the advantage because it leads the play
    White is thought to hold the edge, hence the GM motto "win as white, draw as black."
  4. 07 Dec '06 22:34
    ...though i must admit i do prefer playing as black, but i am always looking for the smallest of error from white just so i can catch up; but i still feel pretty certain that white must have the advantage because it will always be running the play
  5. 07 Dec '06 22:58
    I forget who it was, but I heard one GM remark that any opening you play correctly - or in other words, any opening you see regularly played between titled players - results in a small edge for white (although it's always possible that one side will find a refutation in the future). Why? Because if the edge for white was too big, black would stay away from that line, and if white couldn't get an edge, he'd play another line that was better.

    Yes, white will always have a small edge in the opening if both sides play well. If both sides play perfectly throughout the game though, that edge probably gets smaller and smaller until it becomes zero and the game is drawn (unless it turns out that chess is a forced win for white, which seems unlikely).
  6. 07 Dec '06 23:58 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by rooktakesqueen
    because white always opens first, doesn't that imply if no errors are made then black will always be chasing the game... has anyone ever done any calculations into this... surely white must always hold the advantage because it leads the play
    A few observations:

    1. At master level, White scores about 55% if draws count as half a win and half a loss.

    2. The great GM Efim Bogolubov once said : "When I'm White I win because I'm White, when I'm Black I win because I'm Bogolubov."

    3. Someone once said that the better player will win with either color, but with Black it takes longer.

    4. I think it was Tartakower who mused that "Black wins because White makes the first mistake."
  7. 08 Dec '06 00:20
    I've tried to find an opening that completely equalizes against E4 and have come up with nothing. Even the Najdorf doesn't completely equalize imo. So, yes, I think W always has a small advantage with perfect play.
  8. 08 Dec '06 00:23
    Originally posted by exigentsky
    I've tried to find an opening that completely equalizes against E4 and have come up with nothing. Even the Najdorf doesn't completely equalize imo. So, yes, I think W always has a small advantage with perfect play.
    If two evenly matched players played perfect play, would the advantage be enough to convert the draw to a win?
  9. 08 Dec '06 00:27
    I think I remember that in some huge compiled database of GM games from 1950 or something, that white won 7% more than black did.

    Sorry I can't be more specific.
  10. 08 Dec '06 00:33
    Easier to convert to a win, yes.

    But if you stay even it's draw.
  11. 08 Dec '06 00:53
    Originally posted by Orange Peel
    If two evenly matched players played perfect play, would the advantage be enough to convert the draw to a win?
    IMO, chess is a draw if both players play perfectly. If you analyze results of master games over the course of a few decades, you'll find that the winning percentages for white and black are going down, which basically means that it is becoming easier for Black to draw.
    That fact is consistent with the theory that chess is a draw with best play.
  12. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    08 Dec '06 01:08
    Originally posted by rooktakesqueen
    because white always opens first, doesn't that imply if no errors are made then black will always be chasing the game... has anyone ever done any calculations into this... surely white must always hold the advantage because it leads the play
    It really depends on what you mean by an error. At the start white has the initiative, and so normally plays for an attack, while black normally defends. A player with a defensive style might feel uncomfortable with this and allow their initiative to be dissipated in return for a nice solid position, so that after ten or fifteen moves the position is objectively level. I don't think that allowing this to happen would constitute incorrect play, so you can't really say that there's been an error. Black's objective is to equalize - it's thought that this is always possible, but unlike with white a player with the black pieces can't afford slack or unambitious moves as if your opponent is worth their salt they'll punish you for them.
  13. Standard member Arrakis
    D_U_N_E
    08 Dec '06 03:28
    White has his initiative to defend.
  14. 08 Dec '06 05:09
    Originally posted by arrakis
    White has his initiative to defend.
    Idiot.
  15. 08 Dec '06 11:25 / 2 edits
    Hi everybody

    I find that white has a good advantage especially if you get your opponent
    to move pawns a-3 and h-3 and you don't, you can really get a serious attack under way.

    Rourkey