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Don't Drag Out Your Losses

SubscriberCrawlIce
Only Chess 05 Jul '11 12:55
  1. C
    SubscriberCrawlIce
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    05 Jul '11 12:55
    I've experienced some games where my opponent has, through perfectly legitimate means, dragged our his or her loss. My question is, WHY? There's no rationale for it. Consider:

    If you have a pending loss and a pending win, take the loss. Your rating is currently lower and you'll lose fewer points. And when you cash in your win, you'll gain more points. It's simple math.

    On the other hand, if you go after the win first, to "get points so that you can pay for the loss," then when you _are_ forced to take the loss, you'll lose more points because you're more competitive vis-a-vis your opponent, rating-wise.

    So don't drag out the losses. It's irritating, and it doesn't buy you anything.

    End of mini-rant.
  2. E
    Standard memberEinZweiDrei
    c6
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    05 Jul '11 13:14
    Originally posted by CrawlIce
    I've experienced some games where my opponent has, through perfectly legitimate means, dragged our his or her loss. My question is, WHY? There's no rationale for it. Consider:

    If you have a pending loss and a pending win, take the loss. Your rating is currently lower and you'll lose fewer points. And when you cash in your win, you'll gain more point ...[text shortened]... the losses. It's irritating, and it doesn't buy you anything.

    End of mini-rant.
    Exceptions:

    -Your opponent stands a real chance of giving stalemate if they make an absentminded or drunk move.

    -You have a queen battery, perpetual, or cheap shot on board that might come into play if your opponent makes an absentminded or drunk move.


    That said, down a rook or more with zero compensation does mean time to resign.

    Regarding your point about ratings, are you sure win-then-loss isn't equivalent to loss-then-win in an ELO rating system? You'd think they'd account for that.
  3. t
    Standard membertorten
    bedlam
    Joined
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    6387
    05 Jul '11 13:15
    Originally posted by CrawlIce
    I've experienced some games where my opponent has, through perfectly legitimate means, dragged our his or her loss. My question is, WHY? There's no rationale for it. Consider:

    If you have a pending loss and a pending win, take the loss. Your rating is currently lower and you'll lose fewer points. And when you cash in your win, you'll gain more point ...[text shortened]... the losses. It's irritating, and it doesn't buy you anything.

    End of mini-rant.
    If your PC explodes I may win on time.You didn't think about that,did you? 😉

    Some might not realise they're lost.Some might hope you blunder into mate or a stalemate trick pops up.Some even think it's rude to resign (that one always baffled me).

    And some are just jerks.
  4. SubscriberPaul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    The Stacks
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    05 Jul '11 15:54
    Originally posted by CrawlIce
    I've experienced some games where my opponent has, through perfectly legitimate means, dragged our his or her loss. My question is, WHY? There's no rationale for it. Consider:

    If you have a pending loss and a pending win, take the loss. Your rating is currently lower and you'll lose fewer points. And when you cash in your win, you'll gain more point ...[text shortened]... the losses. It's irritating, and it doesn't buy you anything.

    End of mini-rant.
    While I certainly appreciate the OP's point, here is an interesting counterpoint, where I was the victim!

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  5. S
    Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    2014.05.01
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    05 Jul '11 19:54
    Originally posted by CrawlIce
    So don't drag out the losses. It's irritating, and it doesn't buy you anything.
    Playing won games should be fun. 😕
  6. D
    Standard memberDfthd
    Unicorn Equestrain
    New York
    Joined
    23 Sep '04
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    19145
    05 Jul '11 20:07
    Some dude is about to lose his queen in my game. I'm also up a piece. Out of curiosity, I checked and found he isn't moving in any of the games he's losing in lol. I'm going to trade down and promote all my pawns into knights.
  7. Subscribergreenpawn34
    e4
    Joined
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    42492
    05 Jul '11 22:01
    Please don't do that as the Knights Sump only holds 20 spare Knights.
    17 are already out and if you take the remaining three then some other players
    will not be able to promote to Knights and have to wait till your game ends.

    There are plenty of Bishops in the Bishops Sump, take those.

    Current Sump Standing.

    Spare Queens being used = 56 left = 144
    Spare Rooks being used = 21 left = 79
    Spare Bishops being used = 2 left 18
    Spare Knights being used = 17 left 3

    I don't know why they only put 20 Knights in the sump but it's
    too late to add anymore.
  8. C
    SubscriberCrawlIce
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    06 Jul '11 00:21
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Please don't do that as the Knights Sump only holds 20 spare Knights.
    17 are already out and if you take the remaining three then some other players
    will not be able to promote to Knights and have to wait till your game ends.
    Surely you jest. There's no way the actions of one game impinge on the playing of another.
  9. C
    SubscriberCrawlIce
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    06 Jul '11 00:57
    Double-checking my guesses:

    I've tested the following scenarios:

    You're at 1600, playing two 1700 players, losing to one, winning on one.
    Taking the loss first, then then win, saves you one point.

    That's less than I figured. It also works to one point if you're at 1600, playing two players at 1500, losing to one and winning to one.

    If the differential is 200, say you're at 1600, playing two players at 1800, losing to one and winning on another, the points saved are 2.

    So the differential to taking your losses before your wins appears to be about 1 point per 100 points of rating differential, other things being equal.

    Okay. So it's really not worth it. Can I cancel this thread? 😉
  10. MR
    Standard memberMad Rook
    Joined
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    06 Jul '11 02:08
    Originally posted by CrawlIce
    Double-checking my guesses:

    I've tested the following scenarios:

    You're at 1600, playing two 1700 players, losing to one, winning on one.
    Taking the loss first, then then win, saves you one point.

    That's less than I figured. It also works to one point if you're at 1600, playing two players at 1500, losing to one and winning to one.

    If the diff ...[text shortened]... things being equal.

    Okay. So it's really not worth it. Can I cancel this thread? 😉
    Taking the loss first doesn't always save you points. Try 1400 vs. 1800. It's a wash.
  11. SubscriberPaul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    The Stacks
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    06 Jul '11 05:45
    Originally posted by CrawlIce
    Double-checking my guesses:

    I've tested the following scenarios:

    You're at 1600, playing two 1700 players, losing to one, winning on one.
    Taking the loss first, then then win, saves you one point.

    That's less than I figured. It also works to one point if you're at 1600, playing two players at 1500, losing to one and winning to one.

    If the diff ...[text shortened]... things being equal.

    Okay. So it's really not worth it. Can I cancel this thread? 😉
    Your point doesn't need the ratings math to be valid.

    Ultimately, knowing the right time to resign is a function of knowledge, experience, and character, and threads like this can be a useful introduction to chess etiquette for new players, especially for those whose experience is confined to internet contact and have never been to a club.

    There's also a certain cathartic value to venting occasionally in the forum, and we all take our turn from time to time!

    And I have to add, sometimes we get some pretty funny games where people promote multiple pawns in ridiculously winning positions and set up neat mating patterns and other such nonsense just to make a point. That's entertainment!
  12. Standard memberShallow Blue
    Joined
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    12444
    06 Jul '11 11:38
    Originally posted by CrawlIce
    So don't drag out the losses. It's irritating, and it doesn't buy you anything.
    I'm afraid that's simply not true. If I'd resigned all games in which I dropped a piece as soon as I dropped it, I'd have lost more games. In one, my opponent even gave the piece back, but then donated the exchange as well. I won that one, after "having" to resign.
    In fact, if I'd paid bl#@dy attention in all games in which I dropped a piece, I'd have won even more of them 😕.

    Richard
  13. w
    Standard memberwargamer66
    Steve B.
    Salt Lake City
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    06 Jul '11 12:10
    I have an annoying game like this going on right now. I'll get 4 queens I think.
  14. Donationketchuplover
    Isolated Pawn
    Wisconsin USA
    Joined
    09 Dec '01
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    71174
    06 Jul '11 12:33
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Please don't do that as the Knights Sump only holds 20 spare Knights.
    17 are already out and if you take the remaining three then some other players
    will not be able to promote to Knights and have to wait till your game ends.

    There are plenty of Bishops in the Bishops Sump, take those.

    Current Sump Standing.

    Spare Queens being used = 56 left = ...[text shortened]... 3

    I don't know why they only put 20 Knights in the sump but it's
    too late to add anymore.
    Still celebrating your birthday? 🙂
  15. S
    Standard memberSmittyTime
    Joined
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    Moves
    119121
    06 Jul '11 17:09
    Or, maybe if you hold on, your opponent will lose from a "won" end game position in a comedy of errors. It's a conundrum really.

    [Event "Open invite"]
    [Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
    [Date "2011.07.04"]
    [EndDate "2011.07.06"]
    [Round "?"]
    [White "Pi3"]
    [Black "SmittyTime"]
    [WhiteRating "1516"]
    [BlackRating "1376"]
    [WhiteElo "1516"]
    [BlackElo "1376"]
    [Result "1-0"]
    [GameId "8538764"]


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