dutch or grunfeld?

ive decided to leave the NID/QID and also stop the occasional modern benoni..

so what you think of the 2 listed? i like the dutch as i do a lot of bird as white, and the grunfeld as always interested me in chopping up the center

It really depends on what variation of the Dutch you're considering, but both certainly have advantages. They both have the advantage of being one of the lesser played defenses to 1. d4, so there's a little bit of a surprise factor there. One nice thing about the Dutch is that you can always play the Dutch, and White can't stop you from doing it if he's a QP player. You can also play it against 1. c4 and 1. Nf3, although it's not as good against either one of these moves, since White hasn't weakened the e4 square, and can normally continue with d3 and e4 at a later point. I prefer the Grunfeld to the Dutch personally. It's got a decent amount of theory, but if you don't mind studying it, that's to your advantage. It's a very rich opening, and one nice thing about it is that the themes are pretty simple. You simply counterattack White's center in the best way you can find. Also, a lot of endings in the Grunfeld are better for Black, since he normally finds himself with a queenside majority. Another nice thing is that against every major White variation White has, Black can play an incredibly large amount of moves, and you can always find one that fits your style. For instance, against the exchange main line with 8. Rb1:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. Nf3 c5 8. Rb1! 0-0 9. Be2 :

Black can play 3 different 9th moves:

9...Nc6 10. d5 and now:

10...Bxc3+ 11. Bd2 Bxd2+ 12. Qxd2 and now:
12...Nd4
12...Na5

or just 10...Ne5 which is more reliable

9...b6 (My preference)

9...cxd4 10. cxd4 Qa5+ 11. Bd2 Qxa2 12. 0-0 and now:

12...a5 (The ballsy choice)
12...b6
12...Nd7
12...Bg4 (The safe choice)

All of these choices have different themes and flavors. It goes the same way for all of the other popular White choices. You can play the Grunfeld really solidly, or really riskily, depending on what you want, and how you feel that day. Also, a lot of people don't like the responsibility of babysitting such a large center from all of Black's pieces.

Originally posted by irontigran
ive decided to leave the NID/QID and also stop the occasional modern benoni..

so what you think of the 2 listed? i like the dutch as i do a lot of bird as white, and the grunfeld as always interested me in chopping up the center

I would prefer Dutch (Leningrad system) as White has too many possible good replies against Gruenfeld, making Gruenfeld player to swot large amount of theory.

Originally posted by irontigran
ive decided to leave the NID/QID and also stop the occasional modern benoni..

so what you think of the 2 listed? i like the dutch as i do a lot of bird as white, and the grunfeld as always interested me in chopping up the center

(Beaten to it I see! Good post from Tony!)

I think the Dutch will work quite well for most players rated up to about 1800 OTB/maybe 2000 online?!

It is generally a very aggressive opening, and its defects are often very hard to exploit unless one has a strong understanding of positional play. So, if you are tactically astute then in practice up to a certain level it should serve you very well.

The Grunfeld is a different kettle of fish entirely; an extremely reputable opening, highly-theoretical and the mainstay of many top players.

If you are only playing online at a slow time-control (and using databases or expect your opponents to be using them) then use the Grunfeld. If you are looking for an OTB weapon, then the Dutch is a fine choice.

This is only very general advice though : ) You can try both and see which (if either) feels right to you. If not, persevere with the Nimzo-Indian, and use some form of KID/Benoni for passive opponents in particular!

I like playing against the Dutch.

Another consideration is the type of game you like. The Gruenfeld often leads to very open positions and you have to be good at those sort of tactics. The Dutch leads to a lot more closed positions (sometimes locked, sometimes flexible depending on what you play). Most players are more comfortable with one or the other.

Perhaps it's pointless me posting when so many exceptional players are doing so but I'd recommend the Leningrad Dutch.

If you look at my graph you'll see a rise from 1550ish to over 1600 and this corresponds to when I took it up. Granted I'm not a natural 1...d5 player and was losing pretty much all my games against the QG whether accepted or declined, but still...

I used a database pretty extensively when I first started, and still do if someone does something unfamiliar, but once I'd learnt to put a pawn on c6 instead of my knight I was away.

Most importantly it's great fun to play and real edge of the seat stuff when your opponent throws everything he has at your Kingside.

I know from our games you're a little off the wall and I think you'd enjoy it.

EDIT: Just on what Tony was saying about it not being as good against the English... I play it against it anyway as it gives me more practice. Also I find that often play will either run 1.d4 f5 2.c4 or 1.c4 f5 2. d4 so often it will be 6 and 2 3s.

thanks guys, i have a lot of good stuff to go over and think about. i may just have to try both then 🙂

i am a crazy player so maybe a leningrad dutch and one of the ballsy grunfelds will be up my alley

I would say dutch because grunfeld can be very drawish and hard to beat white with. I think the kings indian should be taken up, every gm has played it that was world champion. Or I'd say copy anand ;-D

Originally posted by irontigran
thanks guys, i have a lot of good stuff to go over and think about. i may just have to try both then 🙂

i am a crazy player so maybe a leningrad dutch and one of the ballsy grunfelds will be up my alley

If you want we could play an unrated/rated game you playing the dutch against me.

Originally posted by kmac27
I would say dutch because grunfeld can be very drawish and hard to beat white with.

Where does this generalization come from. The Grunfeld is one of the most imbalanced and unclear defenses to 1. d4 out there! Sure, there are some forcing lines that lead to drawish endings and such, but Black has so many options that leave a lot more to play for, that I think it's unfair that you're throwing this fine defense under the bus like this! 😀

I played it and don't like from either side of the board! white has already traded off a piece and he has all that space and not as many pieces to occupy it. As black I have a hard time attacking whites center without becoming under fire. I would say neither, but thats my opinion ;-) Whats wrong with the benoni?

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
Where does this generalization come from. The Grunfeld is one of the most imbalanced and unclear defenses to 1. d4 out there! Sure, there are some forcing lines that lead to drawish endings and such, but Black has so many options that leave a lot more to play for, that I think it's unfair that you're throwing this fine defense under the bus like this! 😀

Let 'em throw it away. Those of us that play it will improve our results. 😏

i think i will try the grunfeld. i already play the bird so bird and dutch would be thematic but not much variety.

not wrong with the benoni its just i cant seem to work it right for some reason

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
Where does this generalization come from. The Grunfeld is one of the most imbalanced and unclear defenses to 1. d4 out there! Sure, there are some forcing lines that lead to drawish endings and such, but Black has so many options that leave a lot more to play for, that I think it's unfair that you're throwing this fine defense under the bus like this! 😀

The main problem of Gruenfeld is wide defense perimeter - White has too many good continuations which Black are obliged to know for not getting in trouble.