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  1. 17 Sep '12 13:50
    Hello,

    my opponent just resigned after a mouse slip. He meant to play Rf6 in this position, but played Rf7, putting his rook en prise.

    White to play (I'm black).



    I thought it would be possible to draw this game, because white's queenside pawns are not enough advanced to promote without support. Either he uses his rook to support them, giving me some chances on the kingside, or he plays on the kingside and then I capture the queenside pawns.

    What do you think? This is the whole game:

  2. 17 Sep '12 14:16
    I don't like you after Rf6. I think against a human, which is no guarantee on RHP, white should win by capturing the g6 pawn and running his queenside.
  3. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    18 Sep '12 05:14 / 6 edits
    Originally posted by HikaruShindo
    I don't like you after Rf6. I think against a human, which is no guarantee on RHP, white should win by capturing the g6 pawn and running his queenside.
    But it will not be white's move after 37. Rf6. Black can reply 37...h4. White can't take or else he loses his rook. So...
    38. Rxg6+ Kf7 39. Rf6+ Kg7 40. Rf3 h3! and Black has a passed pawn that is two moves away from a new queen.

    Now it looks like Black has good drawing chances.

    Like this:
  4. 18 Sep '12 08:33
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    But it will not be white's move after 37. Rf6. Black can reply 37...h4. White can't take or else he loses his rook. So...
    38. Rxg6+ Kf7 39. Rf6+ Kg7 40. Rf3 h3! and Black has a passed pawn that is two moves away from a new queen.

    Now it looks like Black has good drawing chances.

    Like this:
    [pgn]
    [FEN "8/6k1/5Rp1/6Kp/1P6/P5P1/1r6/8 b - - "]
    1. ...h4 2. Rxg6+ Kf7 3. Rf6+ Kg7 4. Rf3 h3 5. g4 h2 6. Rh3 Ra2 7. b5 Rxa3 8. Rxh2 Rb3
    [/pgn]
    RJ,

    i think you missed gxh4.

    Correction: i thought you missed gxh4.

  5. Standard member vivify
    rain
    18 Sep '12 09:34 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by tvochess
    Hello,

    my opponent just resigned after a mouse slip. He meant to play Rf6 in this position, but played Rf7, putting his rook en prise.

    White to play (I'm black).

    [fen]8/6k1/6p1/6Kp/1P6/P4RP1/1r6/8 b - - 3 37[/fen]

    I thought it would be possible to draw this game, because white's queenside pawns are not enough advanced to promote without support. h2b2 34. Rf5f3 h5 35. Ke3f4 g6 36. Kf4g5 Kg8g7 37. Rf3f7 0-1
    [/pgn]
    At 18. Ba6b5, why didn't you capture white's night with yours, instead of moving your bishop? Seemed like a freebie.
  6. 18 Sep '12 09:47 / 1 edit
    That knight is defended by a bishop and the other knight. Of course, if he takes back with the other knight: Bxf1 wins the exchange.
  7. Standard member vivify
    rain
    18 Sep '12 09:51
    I must be blind. I can't believe I didn't see white's night was defended. It's 5 a.m. in New York, and I haven't slept all night. This (I seriously hope) is probably why I didn't see the obvious.
  8. 18 Sep '12 23:04 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by tvochess
    Hello,

    my opponent just resigned after a mouse slip. He meant to play Rf6 in this position, but played Rf7, putting his rook en prise.

    White to play (I'm black).

    [fen]8/6k1/6p1/6Kp/1P6/P4RP1/1r6/8 b - - 3 37[/fen]

    I thought it would be possible to draw this game, because white's queenside pawns are not enough advanced to promote without support. h2b2 34. Rf5f3 h5 35. Ke3f4 g6 36. Kf4g5 Kg8g7 37. Rf3f7 0-1
    [/pgn]
    Rc3 instead of Rf6 seems quite promising

    g4 Rg2
    Rf4 may also give chances

    My gut instinct tells me white must be winning
  9. 23 Sep '12 21:53
    Originally posted by tvochess
    Hello,

    my opponent just resigned after a mouse slip. He meant to play Rf6 in this position, but played Rf7, putting his rook en prise.

    White to play (I'm black).

    [fen]8/6k1/6p1/6Kp/1P6/P4RP1/1r6/8 b - - 3 37[/fen]

    I thought it would be possible to draw this game, because white's queenside pawns are not enough advanced to promote without support. ...[text shortened]... h2b2 34. Rf5f3 h5 35. Ke3f4 g6 36. Kf4g5 Kg8g7 37. Rf3f7 0-1
    [/pgn]
    After 36...Kg7, my first impression (intuition, not engine) was that White's winning.
    I think that 37 Rf6? is an error; then White would be attempting to capture Black's
    g6 pawn in the wrong way (with the rook).

    I think that 37 Rc3, threatening Rc7+ and Kxg6, should be enough to win.
    Here's some analysis (you can work out the rest of these variations):

    A) 37 Rc3 Rb1 (temporizing) 38 Rc7+ Kf8 39 Kxg6 Rb3 40 Kxh5 Rxa3
    (or 40...Rxg3 41 a4 wins) 41 g4 wins

    B) 37 Rc3 Rg2 (or Ra2) 38 b5 Rb2 39 a4 Rb4 (or 39...Ra2 40 Rc7+ Kf8 41 b6 wins)
    40 Rc7+ Kf8 41 Kxg6 wins

    Was there something significant that I overlooked?
  10. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    23 Sep '12 23:19
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    After 36...Kg7, my first impression (intuition, not engine) was that White's winning.
    I think that 37 Rf6? is an error; then White would be attempting to capture Black's
    g6 pawn in the wrong way (with the rook).

    I think that 37 Rc3, threatening Rc7+ and Kxg6, should be enough to win.
    Here's some analysis (you can work out the rest of these variations ...[text shortened]... 8 41 b6 wins)
    40 Rc7+ Kf8 41 Kxg6 wins

    Was there something significant that I overlooked?
    The move Rc3 instead of Rf6 has already been pointed out by queenabber and your reasoning seem to be the right one to me.
  11. 23 Sep '12 23:52
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The move Rc3 instead of Rf6 has already been pointed out by queenabber and your reasoning seem to be the right one to me.
    I did not need to read Queenabber's post before I wrote my original post.
    37 Rc3 was an obvious candidate move for me.

    In his earlier post, Queenabber made *two suggestions*, A) 37 Rc3,
    which he called 'seem(ingly) quite promising) and B) 37 g4 Rg2 38 Rf4
    (I think that his suggestion of 37 g4...etc. would be an error for White.)
    Queenabber did not give any supporting analysis, evidently because he had
    not thought of it, simply writing that his post was based on his 'gut instinct'.

    In contrast, I concluded that 37 Rc3 was winning (not just 'quite promising',
    and I gave sufficiently detailed original analysis to support my conclusion.

    By the way, I once was present when an IM (who was the captain of his team
    at the Olympiad) was analysing a very complicated position, which seemed
    unclear to him and some other masters. The IM asked (rhetorically), "So who
    can tell me what's the best move here?" Gathering up my nerve, I heard
    myself saying, "I think it's this move", and I briefly explained why I thought so,
    based largely on my intuition. Some of the masters did not take my suggestion
    seriously at first. Much later, I heard that the IM and the others doing the
    analysis had concluded that indeed my suggested move was probably best,
    though for some deeper reasons that were not initially well understood by me.
    So I would not claim that I had arrived at my conclusion by original analysis.
  12. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    24 Sep '12 00:10 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I did not need to read Queenabber's post before I wrote my original post.
    37 Rc3 was an obvious candidate move for me.

    In his earlier post, Queenabber made *two suggestions*, A) 37 Rc3,
    which he called 'seem(ingly) quite promising) and B) 37 g4 Rg2 38 Rf4
    (I think that his suggestion of 37 g4...etc. would be an error for White.)
    Queenabber did not me.
    So I would not claim that I had arrived at my conclusion by original analysis.
    Well, I will agree with you that 37. Rc3 is the best move, however after 37...Kf7 I must agree with Queenabber's conclusion that it is only promising because he will be able to pick up both of Black's pawns while losing only one of his own. But if that one is White's king knight pawn on g3 Black still has good drawing chances with his King heading to the queen side and the White king out of play on the king side. However at this point, I can not see a clear win for White after my suggested move for Black. But clearly the pressure will be on Black to find all the best moves to draw.
  13. 24 Sep '12 00:55 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Well, I will agree with you that 37. Rc3 is the best move, however after 37...Kf7 I must agree with Queenabber's conclusion that it is only promising because he will be able to pick up both of Black's pawns while losing only one of his own. But if that one is White's king knight pawn on g3 Black still has good drawing chances with his King heading to the qu ...[text shortened]... ove for Black. But clearly the pressure will be on Black to find all the best moves to draw.
    First of all, if you, RJHinds, are a serious chess player (which some people
    have doubted), you should attempt to use chess notation more than words
    to describe your chess thoughts. (Don't serious musicians prefer to use
    musical notation to describe what they are doing?)

    So 37...Kf7 seems to be the best try according to RJHinds's 'analysis board'.
    And RJHinds has concluded that Black 'still has good drawing chances' and
    White does not have a 'clear win'. I think that RJHinds is wrong, though
    White might misplay the endgame and not win it.

    Here's the main variation:
    37 Rc3 Kf7 38 Rc7+ Ke6 39 Kxg6 Rb3 40 Kxh5 Rxg3 (40...Rxa3 41 g4 wins),
    reaching a position where RJHinds claims that 'Black still has good drawing
    chances'. I think that White should win from this position. White's rook on
    the c-file can delay Black's king from approaching White's advancing pawns.
    And if Black puts his rook behind White's pawns to delay their advance, then
    White's king can try to move toward the queenside and support their advance.

    Here's a sample variation:
    41 a4 Kd6 42 Rc8 Kd7 43 Rc5 Rb3 44 b5 Ra3 45 Rc4 Kd6 46 Kg4 Rb3
    (46...Kd5 47 Rb4 Kc5 48 b6 Kxb4 49 b7 and wins, though White has to win
    a queen vs rook endgame) 47 Kf5 Kd5 48 Rc6 Rf3+ 49 Kg5 Ra3 50 Ra6 Kc5
    51 b6 Kc6 52 a5

    White's pawns have advanced, slowly but safely. Black cannot both stop the
    pawns from advancing and stop White's king from moving to support them.
    The winning process might seem tedious but it should be inexorable.
  14. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    24 Sep '12 07:27 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    First of all, if you, RJHinds, are a serious chess player (which some people
    have doubted), you should attempt to use chess notation more than words
    to describe your chess thoughts. (Don't serious musicians prefer to use
    musical notation to describe what they are doing?)

    So 37...Kf7 seems to be the best try according to RJHinds's 'analysis board'.
    rt them.
    The winning process might seem tedious but it should be inexorable.
    Yes, I see what you mean. If White makes no errors he should win this ending. Your analyse pretty good. You surprised me.

    P.S. I started playing chess during the Fischer - Spassky period and learned to record my moves with descriptive notation and stopped playing in 1982. Now that I am back playing and trying to use algebraic notation like everyone else, my mind still flickers back to the past at times. Sorry, if that irritates you.
  15. 24 Sep '12 08:11
    Thx guys/girls for the analysis. I have a busy time right now, so will look back at this later.