Only Chess
26 Jul 04
26 Jul 04
Just finished a game with White having a Knight and the three Kingside pawns and Black having a Rook and the King Knight pawn with both Kings having access to the area of concern. Game 582926 Draw was agreed, but is that the proper result? Does anybody have access to one of those fancy, shamzy endgame engines where you put a position in and it tells you what the result should be? And if there is a winning technique could one of you geniuses share it with us? It's an unusual ending but it does crop up and I'd like to know it.
26 Jul 04
Originally posted by Paul DiracWell, I'd rather discuss the endgame but .........
I don't have any useful analysis to offer. But here is a question for you. Starting with move 38 it looked like you wanted to swap rooks. Did you foresee your opponent's move 43, which checks your king and thereby wins a pawn from you?
I had won the exchange, but my King was exposed to a strong attack + White had a supported passed pawn on the sixth rank. My first priority was to break the attack and exchanging Rooks was a means to that end. I had moved my Rook to d7 where it was temporarily safe from capture because of the pin on the passed pawn, but I was very concerned about Qc3, threatening a discovered check
and Qc1 threatening Qh6 + where White is very close to a mating net and of course, relieving the pin with check so my Rook could be taken by the pawn. I figured the Rook had to be moved and f7 seemed like the only place to go. I was somewhat relieved when he did exchange; I'm not sure I could have taken his rook if his Q went to c3; Qxf6 looks pretty close to a forced mate. It's mate on the move if the King goes to g8 (Nh6!). To me the loss of the rook pawn was more than offset by the taking of his strong passed pawn; where my calculations failed is I did not see far enough ahead that his Knight would capture my h pawn thereby giving me virtually no winning chances.
Answer the question, Paul? I can also honestly say that my head felt like it was going to explode from trying to figure out all the ramifications of the position! But I'll give you what I've found to be a good general rule: if you are under heavy attack, exchange even if it costs a pawn; you can often recover from the loss of a pawn, but you can never recover from the loss of your king!
27 Jul 04
Originally posted by no1marauderIf in particular you mean starting at move 41,
... I'm not sure I could have taken his rook if his Q went to c3; Qxf6 looks pretty close to a forced mate. It's mate on the move if the King goes to g8 (Nh6!)...
41 Qc3, Rxf6; 42 Qxf6+, Kg8 (forced); 43 Nh6++
so I can understand your relief.
27 Jul 04
Originally posted by Paul DiracYes, I actually I had reset up the game and saw it was forced; I tried to edit the last post but I guess it didn't take. So I couldn't have taken it and I would have been facing the discovered check.
If in particular you mean starting at move 41,
41 Qc3, Rxf6; 42 Qxf6+, Kg8 (forced); 43 Nh6++
so I can understand your relief.
27 Jul 04
Originally posted by stalebreadHMM, you're right that 41 ...... h5 does win a piece for Black (to be honest I never considered it!) but does it win the game? After 42 Qc2 h5xg4 43 Qxg6+ Kh8 44 Qxg4 I think the issue is still in doubt. White is down a whole rook(!) but Black's King is still very exposed, White has three connected passed pawns and an advanced passed pawn and White still has the Queen giving him perpetual check possibilities. Of course, Black would have also retained his outside passed pawn so that continuation would have been better than the one I choose. Damn! This game is HARD! I'm going back to Monopoly!
or instead of concentrating on the exchange :
41b : h5 should win a piece for black
I beleive the move numbers in the analysis above are slightly wrong.
Haven't given this too much thought so correct me if I'm wrong.
I do agree though Qc3 looked good.
Stale.
- Joined
- 26 Apr 03
- Moves
- 26771
27 Jul 04
Originally posted by no1marauderhmm, after 44 Qxg6 Rh7 (white's rook threatens checkmate) 45 Qd4! it looks as if white can certainly get perpetual check or win back the lost piece.
HMM, you're right that 41 ...... h5 does win a piece for Black (to be honest I never considered it!) but does it win the game? After 42 Qc2 h5xg4 43 Qxg6+ Kh8 44 Qxg4 I think the issue is still in doubt. White is down a whole rook(!) but Black's King is still very exposed, White has three connected passed pawns and an advanced passed pawn and W ...[text shortened]... ld have been better than the one I choose. Damn! This game is HARD! I'm going back to Monopoly!
28 Jul 04
Originally posted by no1marauderNot going from endgame tablebases but from experience and from endgame theory books, Knights vs. Rooks are often drawn. It can vary, though, for instance Rppp vs. Nppp, if all the pawns are on one side of the board, the N can often force a draw; if the pawns are spread out, the R will usually win so long as all the pawns don't get traded off, because the N can't deal with promotion threats in more than one region of the board the way the R can.
Just finished a game with White having a Knight and the three Kingside pawns and Black having a Rook and the King Knight pawn with both Kings having access to the area of concern. Game 582926 Draw was agreed, but is that the proper result? ...
In situations where the rook player is outnumbered (as in your game), pawn-wise, the R can often force a draw because it can cover so much more territory than the N.
In general, the rook's advantage over minor pieces in endgames comes down to (a) superious range/mobility -- even moreso vs. knights than vs. bishops -- and (b) their ability to single-handedly cut off the enemy king from a part of the battlefield.
Knowing that "rooks=5, knights=3" is a handy aid to planning, but it's always important to keep in mind WHY the rook is worth more, because if you don't take advantage of its unique attributes, then it might as well be worth 3 as well. 🙂
29 Jul 04
Originally posted by no1marauderMonopoly - you mean making money? I'm broke and play chess and I agree with you totally, it'is probably a lot harder than making money and not playing chess.
.... This game is HARD! I'm going back to Monopoly!
'Tis a pity though that we are unappreciated by most.
Stale.