endgame question

hi here is a game i played on Fics where i think there must be a technique to winning,
but i dont know what it is, anyone help, regards Robbie.



it appeared to me that the black king cannot get in front of the pawn because of said
white rook, is there not some technique for advancing the knight pawn?

it's black to play right, or is the black king positioned wrong?

I think white can win here. But I'm bad at endgames, so could you give a hint why you doubt about that.

Originally posted by tvochess
it's black to play right, or is the black king positioned wrong?

I think white can win here. But I'm bad at endgames, so could you give a hint why you doubt about that.

yes it must be black to play, ill show you how i drew, but its not very pretty, i am
useless at endgame's, gimme a minute to get this stupid thing sorted,



1. g3 Rh8 2. Rf4+ Ke5 3. Kf3 Rh3 4. Kg4 Rh8 5. Rf5+ Ke6 6. Kf4 Rh1 7. Kg5 Rh8 8. g4
Rg8+ 9. Kf4 Ra8 10. Kg5 Rg8+ 11. Kf4 Ra8 12. Re5+ Kf6 13. g5+ Kf7 14. Rf5+ Kg7
15. Rf6 Ra5 16. Kg4 Ra1 17. Kf5 Ra5+ 18. Kg4 Ra1 19. Rf4 Rg1+ 20. Kf5 Ra1 21. g6
Ra5+

ok i give up!

8.g4 i think was the drawing move, Rf6 would have been better, up until that point i was
doing ok. Before this i got beat up by a girl and she started to make fun of me saying
I was not a man but a mouse and should take up checkers!

On move 17, can't black force a draw with Rf7+?

After the exchange of rooks, doesn't black then have "opposition", able to stop the white pawn from queening with the threat of stalemate?

No clue about proper technique but I tried it against fritz.
After 7 draws I think I've figured it out.



eddie
17.... Rf1+ 18.Ke6 Rxf6 19.gxf6+ Kf8 20.f7 Kg7 21.Ke7 1-0

Originally posted by Wilfriedva
No clue about proper technique but I tried it against fritz.
After 7 draws I think I've figured it out.

[pgn]
[FEN "8/8/8/8/6K1/4kR2/6P1/7r b - - 0 63"]

63... Kd4 64. g3 {the idea is,as usual,to ultimately reach a Lucena position} Rh8 65. Rf6 {this appears to be critical.Any other placement of the rook and I ended up with a draw} Ke5 66. Kg5 Rg8+ ...[text shortened]... 8. Rg4 {1-0}
1-0
[/pgn]

eddie
17.... Rf1+ 18.Ke6 Rxf6 19.gxf6+ Kf8 20.f7 Kg7 21.Ke7 1-0

Lucena position???, i never studied, i guess its worth studying given your analysis, many thanks - Robbie.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Lucena position???, i never studied, i guess its worth studying given your analysis, many thanks - Robbie.

I am no expert either, but it is worthwile to google the Lucena position and study it. One aspet I think is white to be able to interprose a rook against a rook check. I used to think I was good as end games as a kid but now realize how complicated they really are and how little I know. A strategy is to study end games and be good at them, and then be able play basic opening principles and try to force trading/exchanging material to simplify the board to an end game.

Originally posted by moon1969
I am no expert either, but it is worthwile to google the Lucena position and study it. One aspet I think is white to be able to interprose a rook against a rook check. I used to think I was good as end games as a kid but now realize how complicated they really are and how little I know. A strategy is to study end games and be good at them, and then be ab ...[text shortened]... ng principles and try to force trading/exchanging material to simplify the board to an end game.

mmm entirely bypassing the middle game altogether? How can that be, is it possible?
which openings lead directly to an endgame? I think myself that at my measly level
one should know at least some endgame stuff. I used to think that it never really
mattered, but more and more of my blitz games are coming down to the ending,
where it is clear that those better versed in endgame principles are moving into a zone
of comfort. I have on not a few occasions had advantages against higher rated blitz
players from the middle game, sometimes as much as a piece and two pawns and
been vanquished by some awesome endgame play.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
mmm entirely bypassing the middle game altogether? How can that be, is it possible?
which openings lead directly to an endgame? I think myself that at my measly level
one should know at least some endgame stuff. I used to think that it never really
mattered, but more and more of my blitz games are coming down to the ending,
where it is clea ...[text shortened]... , sometimes as much as a piece and two pawns and
been vanquished by some awesome endgame play.

I just took every opporunity to exchange material, and to force or entice exchanges. And obviously, it didn't always work. I just felt comfortable in the end game, and notice that opponents often blew their game in the end-game.

Middle game and tactics are important. Certaintly, all facets of the game are important. And games are likely lost I guess in poor opening play or in the action of the middle game.

I just found in my younger days that the more complex the board, generally the more advantage my stronger opponent had, and that if I knew and was comfortable with end-game play (which is often ignored), I could carefully try to force exchanges and simplify the board, and then rely on my familiarity with the end game. Intitially, I won a lot of games against adults that way when I was 10 or 11 years old. Granted that these adults were usually just casual players and not even really club players. But then I continue the strategy as a teenager against club-level players the few tournaments I played.

And then I enventually realized against really good players that I had a lot still learn about end games. That nuance and feel and knowing simple end game concepts wasn't enough.

I have played alot of blitz games in person and online over the years, and have got something out of it. But as you may agree, it really seems to be a different animal than OTB with more normal time controls.

Originally posted by moon1969
I just took every opporunity to exchange material, and to force or entice exchanges. And obviously, it didn't always work. I just felt comfortable in the end game, and notice that opponents often blew their game in the end-game.

Middle game and tactics are important. Certaintly, all facets of the game are important. And games are likely lost I guess i ...[text shortened]... u may agree, it really seems to be a different animal than OTB with more normal time controls.

its really interesting, GM Mednis i think wrote a book on the subject which i have not
read although i have his other one, looking at the transpositions from middle to end,
anyhow, what can we say about blitz? It appears to me that there are two types of
players, those that play unsound openings that OTB under normal time controls
would be punished, but because of the element of time, they get away with it and
those who play solidly as they would in longer time controls.

The thing that appears to me and it may be a little controversial is that people say
that Blitz is good for tactics, i say its not, why? because you simply do not have time
to calculate all variations accurately. When we look at the top players style in Blitz,
they hardly ever coffee-house it, they play as they would in a tournament, trying
always to find the best moves, they play strategically and positionally, occupying
diagonals, open, half open files and if tactics arise well good, but if not, they
continue with some patience. It appears to me and again this may be controversial,
i dunno, that rather than looking for tactics, they spend their time avoiding them
with little subtle moves, slowly building a position of strength, at least this is how it
appears to me.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

Based on reading the excellent "The Survival Guide to Rook Endings" by John Emms...



What does White want?
- to reach the Lucena position (as mentioned by Wilfriedva)



What does Black want?
- to prevent White obtaining the Lucena position by using The Frontal Defence. Whenever the pawn is NOT far advanced, keep in mind "The Frontal Defence" possibility.



Now...



Rook endgames can be baffling. Just when you think you understand a position, change the location of one piece - even by one square - and suddenly everything can change.

I find that it's vital to acknowledge certain features of the position. In this case:

a) the Black king is cut off from the queening square
b) the Black king is far from the queening square (compare it being on e7)
c) the White pawn is not far advanced
d) the Black rook is not well placed on h1

Why do these matter... explaining (a) to (d)...

a) The Black king would be ideally placed in front of the pawn to oppose it's promotion. Being cut off prevents this.

b) Firstly, if there is an exchange of rooks, the Black king wants to be well placed in the pawn endgame and that often means being closer to the queening square. Secondly, if the Black king was on e7, there is this idea:



Black is challenging White's control of the f-file and hence his king will not remain cut off (drawn).

c) The Frontal Defence relies on White not being able to use the pawn as cover.



White to play - drawn. The White king is exposed to the Frontal Defence
But...



White wins regardless of who to move. The White king is covered by the pawn - no Frontal Defence

d) Obviously for the Frontal Defence, the Black rook needs to get in front of the White king by as big a distance as possible.

Finally the game...



In summary, the poor placing of Black's king meant that Black could not take advantage of White's pawn not being far advanced, via the Frontal Defence.

Originally posted by Varenka
Based on reading the excellent "The Survival Guide to Rook Endings" by John Emms...

[fen]8/8/8/8/6K1/4kR2/6P1/7r b - - 0 0[/fen]

[b]What does White want?
- to reach the Lucena position (as mentioned by Wilfriedva)

[pgn]
[FEN "6K1/4k1P1/8/8/8/8/7r/5R2 w - - 0 0"]
1. Re1+ {White's king needs to escape so the Black king is checked out of the way ...[text shortened]... advantage of White's pawn not being far advanced, via the Frontal Defence.[/b][/b]

wow, just wow, thanks for this!

Originally posted by Varenka
Based on reading the excellent "The Survival Guide to Rook Endings" by John Emms...

[fen]8/8/8/8/6K1/4kR2/6P1/7r b - - 0 0[/fen]

[b]What does White want?
- to reach the Lucena position (as mentioned by Wilfriedva)

[pgn]
[FEN "6K1/4k1P1/8/8/8/8/7r/5R2 w - - 0 0"]
1. Re1+ {White's king needs to escape so the Black king is checked out of the way ...[text shortened]... advantage of White's pawn not being far advanced, via the Frontal Defence.[/b][/b]

This is the most instructive article I've seen since joining here. Well done.

Q

Originally posted by Varenka
Based on reading the excellent "The Survival Guide to Rook Endings" by John Emms...

[fen]8/8/8/8/6K1/4kR2/6P1/7r b - - 0 0[/fen]

[b]What does White want?
- to reach the Lucena position (as mentioned by Wilfriedva)

[pgn]
[FEN "6K1/4k1P1/8/8/8/8/7r/5R2 w - - 0 0"]
1. Re1+ {White's king needs to escape so the Black king is checked out of the way ...[text shortened]... advantage of White's pawn not being far advanced, via the Frontal Defence.[/b][/b]

Thanks for the effort and presentation. As an aside, I do like the John Emms' book "starting out: the c3 Sicilian." I like the way he organizes the variations and also his simple explanation of the resulting pawn structures.