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  1. 21 Aug '07 01:05 / 4 edits
    Black to move
  2. 21 Aug '07 01:06 / 1 edit
    I don't know extremely much about endgames, but here's an interesting one I saw recently. The starting position looked like this.

    Black played 35...e5
    Is that the right move?

    36. fxe5 Kxe5
    37. Ke1? Re4+!

    Now white gets his king isolated, black has to reach a Lucena position to win.

    38. Kd1 f4
    39. Rc2? f3
    40. Rc3?? Kf4??

    In time pressure both players blundered. f2! would have won for black.
  3. 21 Aug '07 01:07 / 1 edit


    41. Rf8+! Ke3
    42. Ke1

    Now it looks like it's drawn. Black can just shift his rook around on f8 and f7 and then check white whenever his king moves or his rook moves off of the e-file.

    Am I right or am I wrong? Provide your analysis and figure out this endgame.

    The game actually ended with black winning, though I can't recall the exact moves.

    (P.S. sorry for the triple post I got confused with the FEN inserting)
  4. 21 Aug '07 02:36
    Originally posted by MoneyMaker7
    [fen]2R5/p6p/8/1p6/4rk2/P4p2/1P5P/3K4 w - - 0 1[/fen]

    41. Rf8+! Ke3
    42. Ke1

    Now it looks like it's drawn. Black can just shift his rook around on f8 and f7 and then check white whenever his king moves or his rook moves off of the e-file.

    Am I right or am I wrong? Provide your analysis and figure out this endgame.

    The game actually ended with ...[text shortened]... all the exact moves.

    (P.S. sorry for the triple post I got confused with the FEN inserting)
    All rook endings are drawn!
    Seriously,pretty tough to analyse but here's an idea.After your 42.Ke1,Rh4?! the idea is to give up the f-pawn and capture white's h-and b-pawn.Problem is black will also lose either the h- or the a-pawn after which it's probably drawn again
  5. Standard member TippedKing
    Blunder Grandmaster
    21 Aug '07 02:59
    I think e5 looks like a good move as there really isn't any way to prevent Black from acquiring a passed pawn at that point, and it will be something White will continue to have to defend against while Black pushes its interests over on the Queen side. There really are very few 'bad' moves for Black. Advancing either flank also has some merit.

    Having said that, there comes a point where you have to stop defending your own pawns to support the advance. At that point White will begin munching your material, which Black will do to maintain material equality, and you will likely end up in one of those R+K vs R+K+P that are dead drawn.

    Depending on the skills of the players in question it is definitely worth playing to the end. Just because something is theoretically drawn doesn't mean your opponent knows how to force the draw.
  6. 21 Aug '07 07:15
    Why not improve the position first before playing e5? I would definitely try 1.a5, and now if white plays Kg2, then 2.Rd4 threaten to take the third row. Follow up with a4, possibly h5 and then go for the break. If white tries to prevent black to take the third row with Ke2, then also a4 and then Rb4 and h5 look good as preparation for the e5-break.
  7. 21 Aug '07 18:30 / 1 edit
    Well practically, Black has a better chance of winning than drawing. However, do you all agree that this position is theoretically drawn?

    If all the pawns were swept off the board and black was left with only one pawn, it would be a drawn position.

    I would think that with other pawns still on the board, Black would have a theoretical win. I think I'd have to ask a GM or IM for the true answer.

    Edit: I couldn't find any rook endgame similar to this in my endgame book.
  8. 21 Aug '07 18:58
    Originally posted by MoneyMaker7
    Well practically, Black has a better chance of winning than drawing. However, do you all agree that this position is theoretically drawn?
    .
    The more I look at it, the more I am convinced that this is a win for black rather than a draw. In rook endgames, the position of the king and the activity of the rook must be optimised before making pawn breaks and allowing the simplification. That's why I would not play e5 immediately.
  9. 22 Aug '07 04:02
    Originally posted by MoneyMaker7
    Black to move
    [fen]8/p6p/4pk2/1p3p2/2r2P2/P7/1P3R1P/5K2 w - - 0 1[/fen]
    I wonder if the following line of play is promising for Black?

    35 ... a5
    36 Ke1 b4
    37 axb4 axb4
    38 Kd1 b3
    39 Rf3 Rc2
    40 Rxb3 Rxh2
  10. 22 Aug '07 10:22
    Originally posted by AlboMalapropFoozer
    I wonder if the following line of play is promising for Black?

    35 ... a5
    36 Ke1 b4
    37 axb4 axb4
    38 Kd1 b3
    39 Rf3 Rc2
    40 Rxb3 Rxh2
    That line has chances too, but I would prefer a) not to play b4 that soon or if you do, b) not to play b3 but Re4 instead, again threatening to take the third row (and then b3).
  11. 22 Aug '07 11:21
    Working with computer analysis, I think Black can win starting with b4. One idea is that if then axb4, Rxb4, Black's rook becomes more active in terms of attacking two White weaknesses. Then Black can consider improving the position of his king or a-pawn, etc. Maybe b4 uses "the principle of two weaknesses".
  12. 22 Aug '07 11:57
    Originally posted by MoneyMaker7
    I don't know extremely much about endgames, but here's an interesting one I saw recently. The starting position looked like this.

    Black played 35...e5
    Is that the right move?
    I don't think so. Black has 2 pluses in this position: an extra pawn, and his king and rook are by far more active than their white counterparts.
    With 35. ..e5 you create a passed pawn, yes, but on the other hand you activate white's rook. In the position before 35. ..e5, the white rook is bound to the defense of f4. I don't think it's clear that black has a won game after 35. ..e5 36. fxe5+ Kxe5 37. Re2+! Kd5 (Re4 Rc2) 38. Re7.

    So I think Mephisto2 idea of first improving the position with a5 etc is a good one, e.g. 35. ..a5 36. Kg2 Rd4 37. Kf3 Rd3+ 38. Ke2 Rb3! and on the next move e5. Seems like a big improvement on an immediate 35. ..e5.
  13. 22 Aug '07 17:23
    The problem with computer analysis is that the computer doesn't know anything about repetition of moves and whatnot.

    For example later in the game when black was just shifting his rook between f7 and f8, the computer kept recommending different moves for white that were losing.

    So even in a drawn position the computer would give black a -5.3 advantage or something similar.

    This is true on my Crafty anyway.
  14. 22 Aug '07 22:26
    Originally posted by Varenka
    Working with computer analysis, I think Black can win starting with b4. One idea is that if then axb4, Rxb4, Black's rook becomes more active in terms of attacking two White weaknesses. Then Black can consider improving the position of his king or a-pawn, etc. Maybe b4 uses "the principle of two weaknesses".
    b4 may be the winning move. After axb4 - Rxb4, black king will proceed to h5 and will attack f pawn (or h pawn if h3 is played). White rook is bound to the protection of the two weak pawns therefore cannot prevent black kings march. If white plays Re2 while black king is on its way, Re4 and since Rxe4 fxe4 is a winning position for black, white rook shall return to f2 square again. Meanwhile, after Re4 black will be loosing the double attack on b and f pawns temporarily. At that moment white may create counter play by playing b3 and then Ra2 -attacking a pawn, so safest way is to play a5 and a4 before the progression of the king.

    If white plays Kh4 to prevent Kh5, e5 wins.

    For example after axb4 –Rxb4;

    1.Kg2 a5
    2.Kg3 a4
    3.Kh3 Kg6
    4.Kg3 Kh5
    5.Re2 Rb3+
    6.Kg2 Kg4
    7.Rf2 Rb4
    8.h3+ Kh4
    9.Re2 Rb3

    and black wins the pawn.