Originally posted by greenpawn34Agreed on the first point, no need to sac the pawn though.
White ignores the daft Queen on a5 and develops.
I'd give a good go in an OTB game.
Probably end up a tempo ahead in the Milner Barry without
saccing the e-pawn.
Simply a3, and if ever cxd then b4 - I think this shows that a5 is less ideal for the queen than b6. My prior line involving taking on c5 wasn't a great idea, white generally does not want to take on c5.
Movesian is a regular practicioner of French Advance with White, and quite a few top GM's have given it a go. Short in kibitzing about the French, maybe in this following game, he stated that the Winawer and Advanced French give white good attacking possibilities at the GM level, the Tarrasch more harmless as Black can break c5 early.
Topalov-Kamsky match rd 5
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1535935
^^Really should have been drawn, Short has nice commentary to this game.
Milner-Barry Gambit, Tal writes about the following game in his Life and Games (one of the masterpieces in chess literature)
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1139522
Tal considers 10...a6 as perhaps strongest - then 'considerable effort required to drive the queen from d4' according to Tal. Will check the line now, I play the French advanced but there's no need to sac the pawn (Movesian doesn't) - but an early Bd3 (instead of Be2 and Bd3 later) does force that, at least in the case where Black has played Qb6.
I have a database with 5...Qa5 in the Advanced French. It contains precisely 18 games. On the other hand, it contains over 21,000 games with anything other than 5...Qa5. Ask yourself therefore: what does this accumulated chess experience tell us? What questions have 21,000 players asked themselves, when faced with 5. c3, that lead them to differ from the 18 who choose 5...Qa5?
Of course, the 18 might be pioneers, breaking new ground with a fresh insight into the position. So let's see by exploring a variation or two. No need, I think, for GP14's pawn sac; we can do similar and retain the pawn. Try 6. dxc5; this is absolutely playable even if the Q hasn't come to a5. Now Black might like to play 6...Bxc5 - but 7. b4 squashes that. The pawn must be retaken, so 6...Qxc5 is forced. Now simply develop with 7. Nf3 and Black's Q is compromised. 8. Bd3 & 9. Be3 are lined up, in some lines creating overwhelming advantage. So Black plays 7...Qc7 (relatively best) and has wasted several tempi. White gets on with 8. Bd3 and so on.
21,000 v. 18? There is usually a reason 🙂
Originally posted by atticus2I don't see anything unsound in those 18 minds.
I have a database with 5...Qa5 in the Advanced French. It contains precisely 18 games. On the other hand, it contains over 21,000 games with anything other than 5...Qa5. Ask yourself therefore: what does this accumulated chess experience tell us? What questions have 21,000 players asked themselves, when faced with 5. c3, that lead them to differ from the 18 al tempi. White gets on with 8. Bd3 and so on.
21,000 v. 18? There is usually a reason 🙂
if you have insight proclaiming otherwise, I would like to see of course. Thats why I posted here. So please, anything you may think as
far as theoretical disadvantages.
Furthermore, the awe that only 18 games of reference creates, tells me
Qa5 might be just where I want to put my queen.
To Mr. GreenPawn34 - I digress
- 8
- a
- 7
- b
- 6
- c
- 5
- d
- 4
- e
- 3
- f
- 2
- g
- 1
- h
| 1. | e4 | e6 |
|---|---|---|
| 2. | d4 | d5 |
| 3. | e5 | c5 |
| 4. | c3 | Qa5 |
| 5. | Nf3 | Bd7 |
| 6. | dxc5 | Qxc5 |
Originally posted by NowakowskiWell using that logic you might want to put your queen on h4 on move 2 ... I've got a database where only 3 people have done that!
I don't see anything unsound in those 18 minds.
Furthermore, the awe that only 18 games of reference creates, tells me
Qa5 might be just where I want to put my queen.
thats a bastardization of the statement.
As long as the move doesn't void all activity, and doesn't
remove all applicable known theory, it's fine. The move in fact
plays very similar to french lines, however, the pressure is slightly
different in the center. White will not be as comfortable as typical
in the french advance.
This is the premises of such a small change.
-GIN
I don't mind where you put your Queen. If our paths ever cross, I'll be sure to play the Advanced French to oblige you. The quality of a move can seldom be sought in the move itself, but in the sequences of which it is part. In the case of 4...Qa5, these sequences fail.
But I suspect you haven't raised the matter to invite this assessment 🙂
Originally posted by NowakowskiIt's not just the centre though is it? On b6 the queen puts pressure on b2 as well - which is very useful in a lot of lines.
The move in fact
plays very similar to french lines, however, the pressure is slightly
different in the center. White will not be as comfortable as typical
in the french advance.
[edit: also there's distant pressure on f2. I've found this useful in more than one game although obviously White's centre has to collapse first]
Also, I disagree with your "White will not be as comfortable ... " thought. It's true White will have to think for him/herself earlier than would otherwise be the case but since this is in a more favourable position I don't see why this would be 'uncomfortable'.
That said, I'm sure ... Qa5 doesn't lose straight away - it's just not as good as ... Qb6 that's all.
As Atticus2 said - you put your queen where you want, but you asked for thoughts and I've given you mine.
Originally posted by NowakowskiIf you don't see "anything unsound" in fact that black queen has wasted move (and will have to waste at least one more to get away from c5), while at the same time white simply continues development...
[b]I don't see anything unsound in those 18 minds.
if you have insight proclaiming otherwise, I would like to see of course. Thats why I posted here. So please, anything you may think as
far as theoretical disadvantages.
Furthermore, the awe that only 18 games of reference creates, tells me
Qa5 might be just where I want to put my queen. c5 4.dxc5"]
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Qa5 5. Nf3 Bd7 6. dxc5 Qxc5 *[/pgn][/b]
Position after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qa5? 5.dxc5 Qxc5 6.Nf3 gives clear disadvantage for black.
Originally posted by atticus2I understand your words, I don't "Disagree" nor do I ask simply for
I don't mind where you put your Queen. If our paths ever cross, I'll be sure to play the Advanced French to oblige you. The quality of a move can seldom be sought in the move itself, but in the sequences of which it is part. In the case of 4...Qa5, these sequences fail.
But I suspect you haven't raised the matter to invite this assessment 🙂
an answer to please myself. I only disagree that a database should
disqualify any idea based on the number of times its been explored.
I ask only, for the ideas to be clarified. Is there any specific reason
why you feel the move is weaker in theory Atticus?
**Thanks John B... good clear answer
**Thanks Cimon... Also a good clear answer
-GIN