I really like Fritz 8. It has excellent internet play. I like the opening training, the end game training, and the coaching. It has definatly imporooved my play. You can set the engine to match your skill level if you like. If you are looking for more variety in computer opponents, I would choose chessmaster, but anything else and I would choose Fritz 8. It's also fun to load Fritz 8 full of engines and battle them out.
First, my qualifications:
I'm a reasonably strong player, I've written a few game playing programs (including a chess program), and I own lots of chess playing software, including Fritz 8.
OK, so what about Fritz 8? As an engine it's OK. It is one of the strongest around. But frankly, there are a number of free chess engines that do almost as well. Unless you are an IM or above, you won't really have to worry about whether Fritz 8 is 50 ELO points stronger than Crafty.
The down side is the interface (not quite the catastrophe that Chess Assistant is, but still pretty tough to use), which is very "modal," i.e. what you can do depends very heavily on what "state" you are in. It makes for awkward naviagtion and program usage.
Also, the copy protection is an issue for me, as I have a laptop I use that doesn't have a built in CDROM. Fortunately there are hacks to prevent Fritz from periodically asking for the CDROM.
If I was on a limited budget, etc., I'd pick up the free Arena (http://www.playwitharena.com/) which comes bundled with a bunch of very strong free engines, some of which have kicked Fritz and Hiarc's butt (OK, they've done well against them).
One thing I would caution against is using a computer for analysis in current games (after the fact is OK). Besides the fact that it's unethical, it leads to lazy, "let's see what the computer thinks I should do" kind of thinking. If you must use a computer in analysis -- in opening research, for example -- make sure to use it just to check your work. Otherwise, you will have no ideas of your own.
Originally posted by dkappeI plan to use it to play against mostly. (never to use in ongoing games)
First, my qualifications:
I'm a reasonably strong player, I've written a few game playing programs (including a chess program), and I own lots of chess playing software, including Fritz 8.
OK, so what about Fritz 8? As an engine it's OK. It is one of the strongest around. But frankly, there are a number of free chess engines that do almost as well. U ...[text shortened]... make sure to use it just to check your work. Otherwise, you will have no ideas of your own.
Originally posted by dkappe$$ doesn't matter...it's only $45!! I pay more skiing (in 1 day) and I did that about 20 days this year
Well, pull down Arena first and play against Ruffian and Crafty and see how that works. It is, after all, free.
I've heard Fritz is very good...I'm surprised you didn't say the same
Originally posted by hypermo2001I said it was OK. All of these chess engines continue to have to same problem: they are good tactically, but are somewhat weak when it comes to long range planning and a sense of innevitability, i.e. this rook is trapped in the corner no matter what white does in the next 30 moves.
$$ doesn't matter...it's only $45!! I pay more skiing (in 1 day) and I did that about 20 days this year
I've heard Fritz is very good...I'm surprised you didn't say the same
The failing of Fritz 8 is the interface, which is poor, and the copy protection, which is annoying. If you have $$ to burn, knock yourself out. I personally believe that Arena + Ruffian + Crafty is a better piece of software, regardless of price.
Originally posted by dkappeWhat the hell are you talking about? Fritz plays around 2800 and tied Kramnik...he says it's stronger than Deep Blue which beat Kasparov...I think you misspoke when you said it's "weak" with long term planning.
I said it was OK. All of these chess engines continue to have to same problem: they are good tactically, but are somewhat weak when it comes to long range planning and a sense of innevitability, i.e. this rook is trapped in the corner no matter what white does in the next 30 moves.
The failing of Fritz 8 is the interface, which is poor, and the copy protec ...[text shortened]... believe that Arena + Ruffian + Crafty is a better piece of software, regardless of price.
I don't think it's weak anywhere and all the pros (including Kasparov) swear by it!
Originally posted by hypermo2001Oiy. Yes, the "rating lists" have Fritz 8 pretty high up there. The SSDF list, one of the most respected, has Fritz 8 at the # 5 spot, behind various versions of Shredder 7, Junior 8 and, ironically, Deep Fritz 7.0. ("Deep" is usually used to indicate that a program supports and makes use of multiple CPU's). I believe its rating there is 2757. Down the list a bit is the free Ruffian 1.0.1 (1.0.5 is somewhat stronger) at #20 and a rating of 2678. A little further down is the free and open source Crafty 18.12 (#30, 2615). A more recent version of Crafty (19.10) just won ICC 6 over Hiarcs and a number of other "pro" engines.
What the hell are you talking about? Fritz plays around 2800 and tied Kramnik...he says it's stronger than Deep Blue which beat Kasparov...I think you misspoke when you said it's "weak" with long term planning.
I don't think it's weak anywhere and all the pros (including Kasparov) swear by it!
For examples of chess engine "blind spots," read http://members.aol.com/rjpawlak/articles/Engineanalysis.html
It's a bit dated, but the same principles still apply.
The bottom line: computers compensate for their poor positional understanding with extremely strong tactical ability. If you play chess like a computer but miss the 12 move combination, you won't be very strong.
Trust me, I've written engines that play at about 2100, but those pro engines work exactly the same way. They've just written code that is faster and incorporated evaluation functions that are tuned much better and cover many more rules-of-thumb than mine.
BTW, Hiarcs is generally thought to be the strongest engine positionally, and it is sold at about the same price as Fritz 8 by the same folks as Fritz 8.
Originally posted by dkappeDoesn't really wash...Kramnik, perhaps the world's best, who is known as a fantastic POSITIONAL player could not beat it...anyway...I'm sure it will not reveal any 'weaknesses' to me.
Oiy. Yes, the "rating lists" have Fritz 8 pretty high up there. The SSDF list, one of the most respected, has Fritz 8 at the # 5 spot, behind various versions of Shredder 7, Junior 8 and, ironically, Deep Fritz 7.0. ("Deep" is usually used to indicate that a program supports and makes use of multiple CPU's). I believe its rating there is 2757. Down the l ...[text shortened]... ositionally, and it is sold at about the same price as Fritz 8 by the same folks as Fritz 8.
Originally posted by hypermo2001I'm torn on whether I should respond. But I never could resist a good argument. 😀
Doesn't really wash...Kramnik, perhaps the world's best, who is known as a fantastic POSITIONAL player could not beat it...anyway...I'm sure it will not reveal any 'weaknesses' to me.
OTB, I don't doubt that Kramnik had a hard time with Fritz 8. Heck I have a hard time with my own program in blitz, and I wrote the damn thing.
The thing is, human playing strength goes up dramatically with time, whereas computers have to sweat twice as long for each ply. The sad truth is that Fritz 8 thinking for 20 hours isn't that much stronger than Fritz 8 thinking for 10 minutes.
But you give me a 7 day, 14 timebank correspondence match with Fritz 8, and I'll do OK. (I may still lose, but what the heck? 😉)
BTW, there is a good page on a correspondence match between a master and two pro programs (Fritz 6 and Nimzo 7.x). Mind you, this is just a US master, not an IM or GM. See http://www.correspondencechess.com/campbell/ham/ham.htm
He lost one match 1/2-1 1/2 and drew the other one.
To close, let me just share my favorite little story of computer weaknesses (from http://www.chessbaseusa.com/T-NOTES/031002.htm):
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I remember a customer who could beat Fritz3 at will -- he found a "hole" in the opening book, played to that same position, locked up the center pawns, and whacked Fritz with a King-shredding, pawn cover-denuding piece sacrifice game after game. And this was right after Kasparov lost ten grand in a tournament final against Fritz (1994, for those keeping score). Guess what? The customer in question wasn't even a titled player -- he was Class B or C, if memory serves. The ETN for November 8, 1998 gives another example of a position at which computers just ain't no dang good (illustrating the "horizon effect" in action).
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Originally posted by dkappefor something a little more lively, have a look here :
BTW, there is a good page on a correspondence match between a master and two pro programs (Fritz 6 and Nimzo 7.x). Mind you, this is just a US master, not an IM or GM. See http://www.correspondencechess.com/campbell/ham/ham.htm
He lost one match 1/2-1 1/2 and drew the other one.
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Game 434179 CM9K(phlabibit) vs. Feivel.
as for ssdf, yes it is the most respected list, it is also not the only one, they seem unanimous at the moment, whether run on same machine, or on different machines over the net -
SHREDDER 8 IS KING
it reliably has about 40 rating points on its nearest nonshredder-competitor : fritz8
no GMs have publicly admitted to playing shredder8 yet.