GM Nigel Davies - Caro Kaan

~~robbie carrobie~~

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26 May '13 11:56

~~robbie carrobie~~
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26 May '13 11:561 edit
In his DVD on the Caro Kaan, Grandmaster Davies gives the following line as a way of playing against the exchange variation 1.e4 c6, 2.d4 d5, 3.exd cxd and Bd3, as popularised by the great Fischer. He cites an old idea of Tartakower, to play ...Qc7 to prevent the dark squared bishop coming to f4. If white develops naturally with Nf3 then its fine, however, white can gain time on the queen with the inventive Ne2 planning Bf4 anyway. It appears to me that the line is wholly faulty, please check it out and tell me what you guys think.

EVENT ?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "-"] [White "N.N."] [Black "N.N."] [Result "*
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[Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "-"] [White "N.N."] [Black "N.N."] [Result "*"] 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Bd3 {exchange variation, the idea of which is simply to prevent the white squared bishop coming to f5} Nc6 5.c3 Qc7 {and this is the idea to prevent white from playing Bf4. Now white can gain time on this move with Ne2, planning Bf4} 6.Ne2 {not a particularly natural square, but it meets the demands of the position} Bg4 7.f3 Bd7 8.Bf4 {and here GM Davies says that Bf4 can simply be met with e5, but i dont believe it!!} e5 9.dxe5 Nxe5 10.Bc2 {GM Davies does not mention this move yet it seems perfectly obvious} Nf6 11.Bg5 {and it appears to me that the queen pawn is impossible to defend} Be7 12.Bxf6 Bxf6 13.Qxd5 {and as black you are a pawn down, you are facing a 3 v 2 queenside pawn majority, your dreams of a minority attack are gone, where is the compensation for the pawn? In fact who in their right mind would accept this position? It appears to me to be nothing more than madness} *

while i really like the idea, it seems to me not to be very sound, if there are any Karo Canners out there, can you suggest a simple and easy line against the exchange variation - regards Robbie.
sonhouse
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26 May '13 12:21
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
In his DVD on the Caro Kaan, Grandmaster Davies gives the following line as a way of playing against the exchange variation 1.e4 c6, 2.d4 d5, 3.exd cxd and Bd3, as popularised by the great Fischer. He cites an old idea of Tartakower, to play ...Qc7 to prevent the dark squared bishop coming to f4. If white develops naturally with Nf3 then its fine, h ...[text shortened]... ou suggest a simple and easy line against the exchange variation - regards Robbie.
Doesn't it look like 7 Bd7 is what causes the loss of the pawn? If the B just went back home the knight could go to d7 to support the f6 knight and thus save the pawn. The bishop could later go to b7 or a6.
greenpawn34
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26 May '13 13:302 edits
Hi Robie.

"......where is the compensation for the pawn? In fact who in their right mind would accept this position?
It appears to me to be nothing more than madness...."

Me...Me...Me...
(that Bg5 is a tempo wasting pawn stealing idea breaking all the principles
of opening play. moving a bit twice in the opening, nicking a pawn with a Queen...)

Black has in this position has the most powerful thing in Chess.......The Move.

There are ideas all over the board.
Qb6 stopping castling (tickling the b2 pawn simply because
it gets a Queen to the 7th rank v an uncastled King.)

0-0-0 (this looks so juicy) big discovers on the White Queen.
That is always worth a pawn in the opeing, that is triple tempo gainer.

Bc6 (another shot) and say hello to something saccing on f3 after Bh4+

There are so many good moves for Black that the only way for him not to
come out of this opening without a huge middle game plus is for him to get
confused. (an excuse once use by Tarrasch for blowing a far superior position.)
~~robbie carrobie~~
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26 May '13 14:291 edit
Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi Robie.

"......where is the compensation for the pawn? In fact who in their right mind would accept this position?
It appears to me to be nothing more than madness...."

[fen]r3k2r/ppqb1ppp/5b2/3Qn3/8/2P2P2/PPB1N1PP/RN2K2R b KQkq - 0 13[/fen]
Me...Me...Me...
(that Bg5 is a tempo wasting pawn stealing idea breaking all the principles
of openin ...[text shortened]... or him to get
confused. (an excuse once use by Tarrasch for blowing a far superior position.)
sigh this is why i am destined to be an eternal patzer great green pawn. Of course you are absolutely correct. In practice white does not take the pawn but moves the queen to d4 instead and surprise surprise, white has a terrible record against the variation, down in the low thirties or something. Thank you GB you have restored my confidence, perhaps it was the sharpness of the position that spooked me, me no like sharp positions 🙂
greenpawn34
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26 May '13 17:43
You are not a patzer Robbie.

You have read too much too quick and missed out the basics.

Queen side majorities are good things to see in a game and writers
can make it look Oh so easy using the games of Capa etc against opponents
who played the correct moves v a QSM but not the best moves.

(they had chances to gamble and make it messy by throwing out a
few snares. Instead they just sat there and watched it all happening to them.)

You cannot made an important decision like wasting time to nick
a pawn intending a QSM plan to see it through.
First you have to judge if you can weather the coming storm.
I'm not surprised as you say that no one has appeared to take
or chase after the pawn.

Nor am I surprsied that Black is keen on offering it.
His whole game comes to life.

But it is good, very good, that you question things and try things.
sonhouse
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27 May '13 04:31
Originally posted by greenpawn34
You are not a patzer Robbie.

You have read too much too quick and missed out the basics.

Queen side majorities are good things to see in a game and writers
can make it look Oh so easy using the games of Capa etc against opponents
who played the correct moves v a QSM but not the best moves.

(they had chances to gamble and make it messy by thro ...[text shortened]... hole game comes to life.

But it is good, very good, that you question things and try things.
What is a QSM plan?
~~robbie carrobie~~
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27 May '13 08:58
Originally posted by sonhouse
What is a QSM plan?
when you have a queenside pawn majority and will use it to create a passed pawn in the endgame.
sonhouse
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27 May '13 15:14
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
when you have a queenside pawn majority and will use it to create a passed pawn in the endgame.
Ah, thanks.
~~robbie carrobie~~
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27 May '13 15:19
Originally posted by sonhouse
Ah, thanks.
it was a real big thing back in Capas time, now though, because of computers, i suspect that strategic aims are carried out much more dynamically. Perhaps GP or someone else can cite an instance of this.
moonbus
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27 May '13 17:251 edit
BTW, it's spelled Caro-Kann.
Paul Leggett
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27 May '13 20:163 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it was a real big thing back in Capas time, now though, because of computers, i suspect that strategic aims are carried out much more dynamically. Perhaps GP or someone else can cite an instance of this.
Hi Robbie,

I was thinking on posting on this subject, and now thay you've opened the door, I will!

Writing as a fellow sometime-Colle player, I can attest that every Colle opening book writer extolls the virtues of the Queenside pawn majority (QSM) as the Colle player's salvation whenever the kingside attack does not materialize.

While the QSM is certainly an endgame advantage in many cases, the writers like to act as though it wins by force.

GM Joe Gallagher (of whom I am a big fan, and own and have read all his books) stated in one of his books that he thinks the QSM has often been overrated in books, as it is often advantageous depending on king position, but by no means winning without some other plus in the position. I've been going through the stack and I can't remember which one, but I remember the impression his words made on me.

Since the Sicilian Defense is an excellent counter-example (white has a QSM, but black has two center pawns and the better ending-QSM notwithstanding), I think all talk of QSMs should be put in the context of a particular game or position, as the Colle marketing hype (or any opening book marketing hype) is not always equal to the reality of play.

~~robbie carrobie~~

Joined: 26 Aug '07
Moves: 38239

27 May '13 21:178 edits

Originally posted by Paul Leggett
Hi Robbie,

I was thinking on posting on this subject, and now thay you've opened the door, I will!

Writing as a fellow sometime-Colle player, I can attest that every Colle opening book writer extolls the virtues of the Queenside pawn majority (QSM) as the Colle player's salvation whenever the kingside attack does not materialize.

While the QSM keting hype (or any opening book marketing hype) is not always equal to the reality of play.

you should, it would be really quite interesting, i was following a game, i cannot remember where it was, but Anand was playing the black side of a Slav and the commentator was making the point that whereas before, the strategic ideas where usually worked out strategically, Anand was now using the pieces to apply the same strategic idea, but doing so dynamically rather than purely positionally, if that makes sense and my own thought was that it had to do with computer preparation. I think it was that awesome game against Aronian where he had several pieces en prise. It struck me that this is where chess may infact have changed, in Capas day, the importance of a QSM was just being realised, now it may be redundant because of computers which rely much more on dynamics. This was further enhanced in my mind by another game where Carlson was playing Anand, and had a 2v1 QSM and Anand had a backward pawn but it was not enough for a victory.

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In the end Carlsen created an outside passer but it was not enough for a win either, an amazing game strategically.

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what does a positional chess players have to do? an outside passer, a QSM, a blockaded backwards d Pawn? Wow. Its when you realise that what GP said is absolutely true, the move is everything and given a position with enough dynamic play in it, strategic weakness can be compensated for.

moonbus
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28 May '13 05:22
Very instructive thread. Thanks to the contributors. Who was it said the essential thing in chess is not to find the right move but a feasible plan?
imbalances
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28 May '13 17:33
Thanks for the post. I play caro a lot, but rarely do I get the exchange variation in correspondence games - usually white prefers the tangled advance variation.
~~robbie carrobie~~
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28 May '13 21:281 edit
Originally posted by imbalances
Thanks for the post. I play caro a lot, but rarely do I get the exchange variation in correspondence games - usually white prefers the tangled advance variation.
You are most welcome, i have just started to adopt the CK. Against the advance variation I think that posting the bishop to f5 is asking for it, black must go through all sorts of contortions and his pieces end up on unnatural squares, i much prefer the simple 3...c5, instead of 3...Nf5, if we are prepared to give up a pawn we get all sorts of compensation and easy play on the queen side

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GM Nigel Davies - Caro Kaan