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27 May 08
Originally posted by reyotchI completely agree.
I really think it's funny all of the people responding so negatively to this opening! It's true that objectively this opening is probably not the best, but that is true for a lot of the plays people make. It's a fun opening that has some merit. Plus, it's a fresh way to play a game of chess and sharpens your analysis of positions.
In my experience, m ...[text shortened]... I'll be glad to play a set position game with the diagram provided to see how it works.
27 May 08
Originally posted by reyotch'not the best' is quite the understatement.
I really think it's funny all of the people responding so negatively to this opening! It's true that objectively this opening is probably not the best, but that is true for a lot of the plays people make. It's a fun opening that has some merit. Plus, it's a fresh way to play a game of chess and sharpens your analysis of positions.
In my experience, m ...[text shortened]... I'll be glad to play a set position game with the diagram provided to see how it works.
It's not flexible. You can't castle anymore after move 2. White has made no claim in the centre, nor has he developed any pieces whatsoever. If black develops normally then I believe he will gain at least a small advantage from the opening. That suffices for me to say it is an unsound opening.
Ofcourse the idea is psychological: try to let your opponent overextend his position, make him try to refute it. If he lets you get away with a good position after having played such a silly opening he'll think twice about that.
But you don't have to play 1. f3 and 2. Kf2 to achieve that. I've played lots of offbeat openings over the past few years. I've played 1. f4, bird's opening. I've played all kinds of queen's pawn games. as black I've played philidor's defense and I'm trying nimzowitsch's defense (1. e4 Nc6) at the moment. versus 1. d4 my main weapon is black knight's tango, and lately I've also been trying the Chigorin.
I regard all of these as sound - however, my opponents do not always think the bird is completely sound, and certainly not the nimzowitsch defense. Sometimes there are attempts to refute them, and those attempts haven't worked so far. More often my opponents play careless in the opening. As if it is not so hard for them to get a good position afte r such a weak opening by me. This often means easy equality as black and an advantage as white for me.
My point is, why play these bilge starting moves from which you objectively speaking will get at least a slightly inferior position, to lure your opponent to an all out attack, when you can achieve the same thing with more sound openings?
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27 May 08
2 edits
Originally posted by schakuhrYou don't get the same psychological advantage when you play the phillidor or the nimzowitsch defense. The more off beat the opening is, the more psycological advantage you get.
'not the best' is quite the understatement.
It's not flexible. You can't castle anymore after move 2. White has made no claim in the centre, nor has he developed any pieces whatsoever. If black develops normally then I believe he will gain at least a small advantage from the opening. That suffices for me to say it is an unsound opening.
Ofcourse the i all out attack, when you can achieve the same thing with more sound openings?
And people tend to know the lines of sound openings, nobody espects to ever run into the Hammerschlag. So it forces your opponent to think for himself in the opening and the plan that usually arrises is, attack the "exposed king".
I agree it is alot harder to gain equality if black plays correctly, but black almost never does so, unless they are rated 2100+, but in that case I would lose with any opening.
27 May 08
Originally posted by schakuhrWhat's the big deal? No one is suggesting that someone playing for a master's rating should use this opening.
'not the best' is quite the understatement.
My point is, why play these bilge starting moves from which you objectively speaking will get at least a slightly inferior position, to lure your opponent to an all out attack, when you can achieve the same thing with more sound openings?
For players in the sub-1800 range, i think it's actually quite an interesting opening. One reason why is that it looks much worse than it is...another is that it's going to produce interesting positions. Of the dozen or so games i've played with this opening, they have all been interesting and made me think hard about how to develop next.
The point is that for some (myself included) chess is not about winning games. For me it's about experiencing beautiful positions and thinking and every once in a while coming up with a brilliancy.
One method of playing chess is to play the same opening time and time again and memorize the variations and beat other players just through experience. But frankly this bores me...I'm more from the Fischer random mentality.
If your idea of a fun game is to quickly enter into a wildly deviant structure then you could do a lot worse than the Hammerschlag!
28 May 08
What of this opening without moving the king.
So
1.f3
2a. e3
2b. h4 (prevent the queen from swinging out to that position, if it is possible, since you can no longer protect with Nf3)
3.d4
This leaves you with a powerful central attack, open bishop lanes, room to swing knights around at no material loss and only a slight tempo loss.
So far this modified has worked solidly for me, although I feel what I've done is just transposed into a different opening.
28 May 08
Originally posted by reyotchTrue, and 1.a4 2.h4 is perfectly playable if Black hangs a piece in the middlegame. It doesn't stop the Hammerschlag from being unsound though.
...In my experience, most games are NOT decided by the opening anyway...
The line I gave is perfectly playable for Black providing he doesn't continue to push pawns or allow minor piece exchanges.
28 May 08
1 edit
I think several of the disagreements in this thread revolve around the definition of "unsound."
Personally, I think that an opening is only "unsound" if that opening results in a material deficit
without adequate positional compensation. On the other hand, there are several openings that
may not be the strongest objectively, but I disagree that these openings are necessarily "unsound."
28 May 08
Originally posted by wittywonkaI also think a refutation of an idea or theme can be relevant to the opening.
I think several of the disagreements in this thread revolve around the definition of "unsound."
Personally, I think that an opening is only "unsound" if that opening results in a material deficit
without adequate positional compensation. On the other hand, there are several openings that
may not be the strongest objectively, but I disagree that these openings are necessarily "unsound."
Preparing an active king for the endgame on move 2 & hoping to safely exchange down are some of the ideas up for refutation here.
28 May 08
Originally posted by KnightStalker47Game 3407527
Yes, I would much rather be white in this position against any rated opposition. Again 5..c6 is very common and can be met by 6.Nc3.
I have played this variation many times in blitz, it is better for white.
Here is a good example game Game 3407527
6...Bb4 then exchanging is playing into White's hands.
6...Be7 7.cxd5 cxd5 then what?
28 May 08
Originally posted by SquelchbelchI'd probably play Bb5+, followed by Ne2-Nf4. Re1 will follow.
Game 3407527
6...Bb4 then exchanging is playing into White's hands.
6...Be7 7.cxd5 cxd5 then what?
[fen]rnbqk2r/pp2bppp/5n2/3p4/3Pp3/2N1PP2/PP3KPP/R1BQ1BNR w kq - 0 8[/fen]
I think more interesting than discussing it might be to play a game... how about it?
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28 May 08
1 edit
Originally posted by SquelchbelchI would play 8.Bb5+ Bd7 9.Bxd7 Qxd7 10.Ne2 O-O 11.Nf4 Nc6 12.Qb3
Game 3407527
6...Bb4 then exchanging is playing into White's hands.
6...Be7 7.cxd5 cxd5 then what?
[fen]rnbqk2r/pp2bppp/5n2/3p4/3Pp3/2N1PP2/PP3KPP/R1BQ1BNR w kq - 0 8[/fen]
Send over a challenge to me too. I bet both reyotch and I could beat you using the Hammerschlag.
28 May 08
Originally posted by reyotchNah - I don't play forum challenges after getting beaten by 2 instant experts in Morra games even though I've been playing that relatively obscure opening with around 70+% wins for a couple of years now.
I'd probably play Bb5+, followed by Ne2-Nf4. Re1 will follow.
I think more interesting than discussing it might be to play a game... how about it?