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  1. 11 Nov '07 02:58
    Hi all, my first post.

    I'm a long time, off and on, chess player in need of some suggestions on meeting 1.d4 systems and the English. I'm thinking I might play maybe the Nimzo and Bogo-Indian pair against mainline 1.d4 openings, although the theory is pretty daunting (though I do own a rather good book on the Nimzo). So maybe I'm ok there and could more use some tips on a complimentary approach to less common d4 systems like the London, Colle, and Trompowsky.

    Against 1.c4 there's a line where black plays moves like 1... e5, Nc6, Nf6, and the key move Bb4, resembling a reverse colours sicilian. I have no experience with this line, but since I do open 1.e4 I'm comfortable against the sicilian and also play it with black. Anyone know of any thematic games with this line, or if this English variation has a name?
  2. 11 Nov '07 03:02
    Originally posted by scandium
    Hi all, my first post.

    I'm a long time, off and on, chess player in need of some suggestions on meeting 1.d4 systems and the English. I'm thinking I might play maybe the Nimzo and Bogo-Indian pair against mainline 1.d4 openings, although the theory is pretty daunting (though I do own a rather good book on the Nimzo). So maybe I'm ok there and could more ...[text shortened]... Anyone know of any thematic games with this line, or if this English variation has a name?
    for emergency use against unfamiliar first moves, 1. c6 and 2. d5 never fails. ever. you can take that to the bank. there's a GM (cant remember his name) who wrote a book on how black can play those two moves no matter what white does!
    it does simplify things, as you needn't memorize countless lines in other openings.
  3. 11 Nov '07 03:19
    Originally posted by rubberjaw30
    for emergency use against unfamiliar first moves, 1. c6 and 2. d5 never fails. ever. you can take that to the bank. there's a GM (cant remember his name) who wrote a book on how black can play those two moves no matter what white does!
    it does simplify things, as you needn't memorize countless lines in other openings.
    This might not be bad idea. Of course after, after 1.d4 c6 2. e4 I am playing a Caro instead of my Sicilian, but maybe broadening my opening range against e4 isn't so bad either. I have no experience with 1... c6, but I know against d4 it is a Slav, and a Caro against 1.e4, but is it also playable against the English?
  4. 11 Nov '07 03:48
    Originally posted by scandium
    This might not be bad idea. Of course after, after 1.d4 c6 2. e4 I am playing a Caro instead of my Sicilian, but maybe broadening my opening range against e4 isn't so bad either. I have no experience with 1... c6, but I know against d4 it is a Slav, and a Caro against 1.e4, but is it also playable against the English?
    1...c6 vs the english is certainly playable.
  5. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    11 Nov '07 03:50
    Originally posted by scandium
    This might not be bad idea. Of course after, after 1.d4 c6 2. e4 I am playing a Caro instead of my Sicilian, but maybe broadening my opening range against e4 isn't so bad either. I have no experience with 1... c6, but I know against d4 it is a Slav, and a Caro against 1.e4, but is it also playable against the English?
    I think the main think to remember about openings is after the first couple of moves, like those good suggestions about c6 and d4, just remember the fight is over those 4 squares in the center. If you control those 4 you are winning. If the other guy is, he is winning. That is why the knights come out to c3, f3, c6, f6, it puts toeholds on at least some of the fab four.
    You always end up putting your stake on at least SOME of those four squares. Thats the motivation for moves like 1e4 e5, 2 f4, the kings gambit, it is putting the question to one of those four squares. You take it, fine, I can live with that, I get some power in the center as a result. See what I am talking about here?
  6. 11 Nov '07 03:50
    d4 or c4 just play the dutch: f5! and prepare your attack against the white king. It's very efficient specially otb.
  7. 11 Nov '07 04:18 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by backfrom1994
    d4 or c4 just play the dutch: f5! and prepare your attack against the white king. It's very efficient specially otb.
    Interestingly enough, except for one half-hearted and badly botched attempt, I've never really tried the Dutch either. This in spite of the fact that I have played, and like, the complimentary Bird's opening with white (it is almost a mirror image of the Dutch in some lines) before moving onto the Vienna Game that I've stuck with for the last few years.

    The only problem I have with the Dutch is that it looks fairly one dimensional - block the center, attack the K-side - and I don't do well when my play is so narrowly focused right from the opening. I'm also not a big fan of closed games. But I will try and keep an open mind and take a look at a few database games anyway.
  8. Standard member JonathanB of London
    Curb Your Enthusiasm
    11 Nov '07 11:19
    Originally posted by backfrom1994
    d4 or c4 just play the dutch: f5! and prepare your attack against the white king. It's very efficient specially otb.
    If you do play the Dutch against 1. c4 be careful what lines you go into.

    White can play d2-d3 instead of d2-d4 ... and take away the e4 square from the Black Knights. Doesn't mean you're losing but can be a pain in the backside.

    I normally play that set up from White's side. I'd be interested to hear what Dutch players think of the move order issues here.
  9. 11 Nov '07 15:38
    The Dutch, Leningrad or classical is fine against C4 or D4. I would be wary of playing either against Nf3 where F5 and then D3 can be a killer for black!

    _You also can look into the Old Indian d6 against the English C4.
  10. Standard member Dutch Defense
    Stealer of Souls
    11 Nov '07 15:43
  11. 11 Nov '07 15:47
    a6 b5 bishop b7
  12. 12 Nov '07 00:41
    Originally posted by rubberjaw30
    for emergency use against unfamiliar first moves, 1. c6 and 2. d5 never fails. ever. you can take that to the bank. there's a GM (cant remember his name) who wrote a book on how black can play those two moves no matter what white does!
    it does simplify things, as you needn't memorize countless lines in other openings.
    In his book, "Black Defensive System for the Rest of Your Chess Career", GM Andrew Soltis recommends the Caro-Kann (1 e4 c6) and the Slav Defense (1 d4 d5 2 c4 c6). Against other openings, he almost always recommends putting pawns on d5 and c6. I agree, playing 1...c6 and 2...d5 works against virtually anything.
  13. 12 Nov '07 01:49
    Originally posted by sannevssr
    1...c6 vs the english is certainly playable.
    it dares black to play a slav with 2. d4
    more interesting, though is when play goes: 1. c4 c6 2. e4! d5 3. cxd5 cxd5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. Nc3 and 6. d4 to follow... black can certainly hold even, but white may get good play? it would be similar to an extremely open Scandinavian Defence. and to the O.P., Caro-Kann is a great opening for helping you understand positional play, as (unless white goes into a Panov-Botvinnik Attack) it is very slow positionally based. I ONLY left Caro because it was too boring... solid, rest assured, but drawishly boring, nonetheless.
  14. 12 Nov '07 01:52
    Originally posted by Dutch Defense
    Ask User 340422
    I've heard about that guy, but I disagree about asking him for advice.
    He's full of it as far as his openings as black... bunch of unsound bull.
    1. ...c6 and 2. ...d5 are best...
    although, like I said, 1. c4 and 2. e4 are gonna be different, posing a sort of Maroczy Bind on d5. gaychessplayer, does Soltis give anything about 1. c4 and 2. e4?
  15. 12 Nov '07 01:57 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by gaychessplayer
    In his book, "Black Defensive System for the Rest of Your Chess Career", GM Andrew Soltis recommends the Caro-Kann (1 e4 c6) and the Slav Defense (1 d4 d5 2 c4 c6). Against other openings, he almost always recommends putting pawns on d5 and c6. I agree, playing 1...c6 and 2...d5 works against virtually anything.
    I guess this is kind of what I've been looking for. I don't mind knowing a bit of opening theory, but when you have opps who really know their pet lines and systems guys (London, Colle, etc) who play the same opening moves regardless of black's reply, since they need only know a few ideas they're already comfortable with, it can be very difficult to get an even playing field.

    I find with black my positions range from quite good - but only in the open sicilian - to down right terrible, and often times the later. Especially in d4 and c4 lines where I either misunderstand his intentions, or just find myself stuck for something to do and play weak moves. So here some kind of "system" approach where there are a few concrete ideas to focus on, and not lots and lots of theory, might be good for me.

    With white, after black meets my e4 with e5, I'm pretty ok in that I know my aim and I'm rarely ever stuck for what to do or go wrong after just a few moves. Same thing if he plays something else. I may not know his defence as well as he does, but I know the ideas and am usually pretty comfortable. So maybe this 1... c6 thing can put me on the same kind of footing with black. Its one of the few openings I haven't tried, so its certainly worth a shot.