Help me with a problem please

Originally posted by cmsMaster
? Vienna is 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 which generally transposes into a King's Gambit
i.e. 2...Nf6 3.f4 d5 4.fxe5 Nxe4 5.d3

These are the first 5 moves, and may be considered the mainline, but I'm not actually sure. There are no bishop moves here though, so I'd be curious to know how it could turn into this?

The Vienna

1. e4 e5
2. Nc3 Nf6

White has a wide choice

3. f4 3.g3 and 3.Bc4 are main line variations of the Vienna and the last can transpose from the Bishop's move order.

Of course there is 3.Nf3 aiming for 3 or 4 Knights lines ...

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
This is embarassing, so this hurts to post.
In this made even worse by the fact that i was playing white.

Game 2132505

when i bone things, i bone it bad 🙁

3...Bxf2+ ?? is not sound!
4.Kxf2+ Qh4 5.g3! Qxe4 6.Qe2! Qxh1?? 7. Nf3+! (as oppose to the tempting Ng6+ Kf8 NxR Qxh2+ and black should be able to equalize at the very least.) 7...Kd8 (Ne7 will create a deadly weakness on e7 e.g. 7...Ne7 8.Nc3 Nc6 9.Bg2 Nd4? 10.Nxd4 Qxh2 11.Nd5 and Qxe7 next move) 8.d3! Nf6! 9.Bg5! Re8 10.Qd2 Nc6 11.Bg2 and the black queen has gone too far into enemy territory.

If 6...Qf5+ 7.Nf3+ Ne7 8.d3 Nc6 9.Be3(to prevent 9...Nd4) O-O 10.Nc3(to prevent Nd5) d5 11.d4 Re8 12.Bg2 Ng6 13.Rad1 Nb4 14.Rc1 Nc6 15.Qd2 and white will continue Rf1/e1 Kg1 for an excellent game. small variations are of no threat to white as long as white plays carefully avoiding overloading the pinned pieces in the center.

Edit: well i tried like 10 times to post a second FEN here but it won't work so its in my next post.

cont' from above


If 6...Qd4+ 7.Qe3 QxQ+ 8.dxe3 and white is up a piece/pawn with good development oppurtunities for his bishops.

Originally posted by Mister Meaner
The Vienna

1. e4 e5
2. Nc3 Nf6

White has a wide choice

3. f4 3.g3 and 3.Bc4 are main line variations of the Vienna and the last can transpose from the Bishop's move order.

Of course there is 3.Nf3 aiming for 3 or 4 Knights lines ...

I still don't get it... 🙁 many openings have Bc4 in them, but that isn't considered transposition by any means.

Originally posted by cmsMaster
I still don't get it... 🙁 many openings have Bc4 in them, but that isn't considered transposition by any means.

Transposition simply means that one series of moves gives the SAME POSITION at the end of the move sequence as a second series of moves. Because one series of moves has been given a name eg Bishop's Opening (1.e4 e5 2.Bc4) and the second eg The Vienna
(1.e4 e5 2.Nc3) we say that The Vienna can transpose into the Bishop's opening. This can occur after the sequence 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 which gives the same position as 1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. Nc3...

In other openings the Caro Kann can transpose into a Semi-Tarrasch or Nimzo Indian and so on. It is just more convenient to use the names of openings than type out a list of moves when trying to discuss them.

Bc4 does occur in many openings eg Guioco Piano, Sicilian Sozin, etc but those move orders that have been given other names, and lead to positions that do not necessarily arise from Double King Pawn Openings such as the Vienna and Bishops Opening.

None of these conventions of theory really matter unless you start to try to study openings and need to know what it is called to find it in a book or a database, or discuss it with other players and need a common language to do so.

Originally posted by Mister Meaner
Transposition simply means that one series of moves gives the SAME POSITION at the end of the move sequence as a second series of moves. Because one series of moves has been given a name eg Bishop's Opening (1.e4 e5 2.Bc4) and the second eg The Vienna
(1.e4 e5 2.Nc3) we say that The Vienna can transpose into the Bishop's opening. This can occur after ...[text shortened]... in a book or a database, or discuss it with other players and need a common language to do so.

Thanks. I know what transposition means, I was thinking you meant Vienna Gambit, because that's all I'm used to seeing after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3