Only Chess
14 Nov 08
14 Nov 08
It's basically all I play against 1.e4 these days. I've heard it referred to as "sharp." In fact, its Wikipedia page says, "The Dragon Variation is one of the sharpest variations of the Sicilian Defence, making it one of the sharpest of all chess openings."
My question is: Why? In my games, it just seems like a defensive, safe opening. The King gets nestled in the corner with the protection of the fianchettoed bishop and the knight on f3. The d7 bishop is in a solid, flexible defensive position and you maintain the flexibility to strike at the center with your pawns any time it suits you later in the game.
Seems to my untrained eye that it's a solid, positional opening. Why is it considered so sharp?
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14 Nov 08
Originally posted by sh76If you don't know your stuff it's very easy to get battered in a Kingside assault.
It's basically all I play against 1.e4 these days. I've heard it referred to as "sharp." In fact, its Wikipedia page says, "The Dragon Variation is one of the sharpest variations of the Sicilian Defence, making it one of the sharpest of all chess openings."
My question is: Why? In my games, it just seems like a defensive, safe opening. The King gets nestled ...[text shortened]... to my untrained eye that it's a solid, positional opening. Why is it considered so sharp?
White simply plays f3 he puts his Queen on d2, Bishop e3, castle Queens side then pushes the Kingside pawns with g4 and h4. It can all be over very quickly. If you're going to play the black side of this i'd do some serious opening preparation!
Played well it can be a very dangerous opening. I think David tebb who plays on here employs it quite a bit.
14 Nov 08
Originally posted by TalismanThanks.
If you don't know your stuff it's very easy to get battered in a Kingside assault.
White simply plays f3 he puts his Queen on d2, Bishop e3, castle Queens side then pushes the Kingside pawns with g4 and h4. It can all be over very quickly. If you're going to play the black side of this i'd do some serious opening preparation!
Played well it can be a very dangerous opening. I think David tebb who plays on here employs it quite a bit.
But why is it any more susceptible to a king side attack after 0-0-0 than, say, the KID or any other defense where black castles and fianchettoes the bishop? (I'm not questioning what you're saying- just trying to understand)
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14 Nov 08
Originally posted by sh76I'm really no expert in the Sicillain i'm just speaking from experinece. When i've been faced with the dragon at my club i tend to do quite well using the very basic principals outlined above. I know absolutely no thory on the Sicillian at all. However the early space and develpment advantage obtained by white in this line of the Sicillian plays a big part.
Thanks.
But why is it any more susceptible to a king side attack after 0-0-0 than, say, the KID or any other defense where black castles and fianchettoes the bishop? (I'm not questioning what you're saying- just trying to understand)
14 Nov 08
Originally posted by sh76because in kid white would need to storm with castled pawns, opening his king to a direct attack (which black is gonna launch anyway), but in dragon he can just throw everything at the black king.
Thanks.
But why is it any more susceptible to a king side attack after 0-0-0 than, say, the KID or any other defense where black castles and fianchettoes the bishop? (I'm not questioning what you're saying- just trying to understand)
in a way I agree with the positionality of dragon though, as a lot (most?) of the opening decisions of black are directly related to achieving a winning endgame or/and superior activity, often even with the cost of an exchange. white has to step very carefully between getting mated and losing the kingside/centre pawn endgame. of course black also gets easily mated, but that often comes with the cost of losing the endgame.
14 Nov 08
Originally posted by sh76For the Dragon vs the King's Indian defence as an example, it's easier for white to launch an attack on the k-side because he has played Nc3 instead of c4. Quicker development-easier to attack! Similarly for black, in the dragon he can deploy his forces to the q-side more quickly.
Thanks.
But why is it any more susceptible to a king side attack after 0-0-0 than, say, the KID or any other defense where black castles and fianchettoes the bishop? (I'm not questioning what you're saying- just trying to understand)
In the KID, there is no immediately open c-file for black to counter-attack down , while for white there is the issue of the king's knight's development (it takes longer to include it in any attack).
In short, the dragon is simply a more 'open' game than many similar-looking openings.
14 Nov 08
Originally posted by sh76Strangely enough, when Black plays the Kings Indian he generally attacks on the kingside and White attacks on the queenside (obviously not always, but in most of common book lines). Black always wants to play his e-pawn to e5 to stake a claim in the centre even though it blocks his fianchettoed bishop.
Thanks.
But why is it any more susceptible to a king side attack after 0-0-0 than, say, the KID or any other defense where black castles and fianchettoes the bishop? (I'm not questioning what you're saying- just trying to understand)
The Sicilian Dragon is quite an attractive opening - Black's position looks so cute with his little fianchettoed bishop and his king tucked up behind it, with a pawn on d6 bravely defending the centre against a possible expansion by White. Lots of beginners choose it because it looks like Black can play it with his eyes closed. However Black soon learns that White's plan of f3, Be3, Qe2, g4, h4, h5, g5, hack, hack mate is so simple to play that he abandons it and takes up something more solid and less interesting.
If Black is serious about playing the Dragon, he can't just sit there trying to defend against White's attack and then win the ending because his pawn structure is prettier - he must meet violence with violence - the d-pawn must be thrust to d5 as soon as possible (sometimes in one move). He must be willing to attack on the queenside and not balk at losing the exchange if necessary with Ra8-c8xc3.
14 Nov 08
Originally posted by Fat LadyPeople are still talking about the dated KID and Dragon I see. What about the exchange sac? Move 9 0-0-0 or Bc4? Its long since i moved my pieces but it always amazed me the shallowness of chess discussions on this forum, other than a certain Ry telling us he can see tactics faster than Fritz.
Strangely enough, when Black plays the Kings Indian he generally attacks on the kingside and White attacks on the queenside (obviously not always, but in most of common book lines). Black always wants to play his e-pawn to e5 to stake a claim in the centre even though it blocks his fianchettoed bishop.
The Sicilian Dragon is quite an attractive opening - ...[text shortened]... to attack on the queenside and not balk at losing the exchange if necessary with Ra8-c8xc3.
14 Nov 08
Originally posted by z00tI wish you'd stick to either jie or z00t, all this switching back and forth is confusing. Hehe hehe
People are still talking about the dated KID and Dragon I see. What about the exchange sac? Move 9 0-0-0 or Bc4? Its long since i moved my pieces but it always amazed me the shallowness of chess discussions on this forum, other than a certain Ry telling us he can see tactics faster than Fritz.
as z00t: http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=73965&page=6
as jie: http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=99877&page=2
14 Nov 08
If you ar einterested in studying the dragon sicillian, you might also want to check out the Pirc opening. Several lines in the Pirc wind up much like the dragon with subtle differences that perhaps can help you understand the position better. The Pirc, also, is very exposed to that sort of attack--if fact if anything it is more so, so those lines can give you hints how to defend against it, too. I used to play the Pirc alot, and I found that my experience with it has really helped me with kingside pawn storms, though that is mostly on the storming side these days....
The similarity is somewhat eerie, really, as the Pirc is usually considered an opening where white's moves decide if play is "sharp" or "positional." Perhaps the dragon is the same way? And who says an opening cannot be both "sharp" and "positional"?
14 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Fat LadyThat's insane Fat Lady. I'm now supposed to be someone else or vice-versa? I still have the games somewhere where I hammered you online but i don't know why you would assume I was someone else. i was also amazed by your shallow reperetoire here but said nothing of it at the time. Don't worry I'll lay it all in my livejournal tonight.
I wish you'd stick to either jie or z00t, all this switching back and forth is confusing. Hehe hehe
as z00t: http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=73965&page=6
as jie: http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=99877&page=2
14 Nov 08
Speaking of all this... I just played a quick blitz game using the Sicilian Dragon and White played Qe2, f3, Be3, 0-0-0 and I was prepped for the attack you were talking about. So, since it was blitz, I figured what the heck and tried to counterattack the white long-castled queen. I played Be6, Rc8 and Qa5 (threatening the exchange sac Rxc3 and Qxa2 (his king was on b1). Anyway, he basically offered a queen trade, seemingly equalizing everything...
But then I hung my queen. 🙁
(sorry I forgot to save the pgn)
Anyway, is that one way to counter white's king side attack? Go after the white King with equal vigor?
14 Nov 08
Originally posted by sh76well, yeah. it's the main thing, and without having to defend against the queenside attack white will have all the time in the world to attack black king successfully.
Anyway, is that one way to counter white's king side attack? Go after the white King with equal vigor?
14 Nov 08
Originally posted by sh76The Standard Dragon is considered sharp. The Accelerated Dragon is considered to be positional, which is what you seem to be saying about it. Apparently this is because the latter permits Black to avoid the Yugoslav Attack (what the others have been talking about). The downside of the latter is that you could face the Maroczy Bind as Black.
It's basically all I play against 1.e4 these days. I've heard it referred to as "sharp." In fact, its Wikipedia page says, "The Dragon Variation is one of the sharpest variations of the Sicilian Defence, making it one of the sharpest of all chess openings."
My question is: Why? In my games, it just seems like a defensive, safe opening. The King gets nestled ...[text shortened]... to my untrained eye that it's a solid, positional opening. Why is it considered so sharp?
Also see this (though I don't vouch for it -- caveat emptor):
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070616120344AAZVqfr