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Is win for black possible here?

Standard memberjcmessy
Only Chess 11 Nov '12 05:58
  1. Standard memberjcmessy
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    11 Nov '12 05:58
    White to move.
    Is win possible for black here?

    Game: Game 9248319
  2. Standard membervivify
    rain
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    11 Nov '12 15:29
    At move 58, black should've moved his rook to e1. Black would've either promoted, or caused white to lose a rook in order to prevent promotion. A win would've been possible then.
  3. d
    Standard memberdanilop
    São Paulo, Brazil
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    11 Nov '12 15:571 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    At move 58, black should've moved his rook to e1. Black would've either promoted, or caused white to lose a rook in order to prevent promotion. A win would've been possible then.
    That wouldn't work:

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  4. Standard membervivify
    rain
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    11 Nov '12 20:06
    Good point. I guess black was lucky to get a draw in that position.
  5. SubscriberPaul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
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    11 Nov '12 20:353 edits
    Originally posted by jcmessy
    White to move.
    Is win possible for black here?
    [fen]8/8/4k3/p1r4P/3pp1P1/R7/P3K3/8 --- w[/fen]
    Game: Game 9248319
    At first glance, I thought black was clearly better, but once I try concrete ideas, I end up with nothing to show for it.

    I think the root of the problem is that the black rook looks superficially well-posted, but it's not. It's really locked into a pseudo-defensive/passive position where it leaves a weakness behind whenever it moves. If it had the ability to move to the g- or h-file (behind the white pawns after they have advanced) and create some active threats, it would be much better, but that's easier said than done.

    I've been trying ideas where black lets the white kingside pawns run, holds them with the king, and then slides the rook to the kingside behind the advanced white pawns to attempt to alternate threats against the pawns and also the white king, but white gets to move as well, and I have nothing foolproof yet.
  6. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
    Fort Gordon
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    12 Nov '12 06:514 edits
    Originally posted by jcmessy
    White to move.
    Is win possible for black here?
    [fen]8/8/4k3/p1r4P/3pp1P1/R7/P3K3/8 --- w[/fen]
    Game: Game 9248319
    I think a win for Black is possible, but I don't know if it can be forced at this point. This diagram is after 50.Kd2 of your game.

    My first thought was to move 50...e3+, but after 51.Kd3 Re5 52. Ke2 the advance of the pawns are stopped. However, 50...Kf6 first puts the black King in a better position in case of 51.h6 and also threatens 51...Kg5 attacking the g-pawn that might draw the white Rook over to the King side. It is also a good waiting move, which sometimes is better than to try to force a move

    P.S. To make this clear: One example is 50...Kf6 51.h6 e3+ 52.Kd3 Re5 53. Ke2 Kg6 54.Rd3 Re4 55.g5 Rh4 56.Rd1 Kf5 57.Kd3 Kxg5 etc.
  7. Standard memberjcmessy
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    12 Nov '12 08:07
    Your whole line after 51.h6? is correct.
    But White has 51.Rh3!! which again gives White another whole line of fighting counterplay
    with an approximately equal chance at the end of long variation.

    Game # Game 9248319
  8. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
    Fort Gordon
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    12 Nov '12 08:45
    Originally posted by jcmessy
    Your whole line after 51.h6? is correct.
    But White has 51.Rh3!! which again gives White another whole line of fighting counterplay
    with an approximately equal chance at the end of long variation.
    [fen]8/8/5k2/p1r4P/3pp1P1/7R/P2K4/8 -- b[/fen]
    Game # Game 9248319
    What do you play after 51.Rh3!! e3+?
  9. Standard memberjcmessy
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    12 Nov '12 09:22
    After 51..e3; 52.Kd3



    Game# Game 9248319
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
    Fort Gordon
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    12 Nov '12 09:31
    Originally posted by jcmessy
    After 51..e3; 52.Kd3

    [fen]8/8/5k2/p1r4P/3p2P1/3Kp2R/P7/8 -- b[/fen]

    Game# Game 9248319
    Then 52...Ke5 protects the d4 pawn and threatens 53...Rc3+
  11. Standard memberjcmessy
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    12 Nov '12 10:18
    I see where you coming from. I overlook that simple reply..
    The alternatives:
    (A.) 53.g5 Rc3; 54.Ke2 d3; 55.Kxe3 d2+ wins the Rook @ h3.
    (B.) 53.h6 Rc3; 54.Ke2 d3+ 55.Kf3 d2; 56.Rh1 Rc1-+
    (C.) 53. Rh1 Rc3+ 54.Ke2 Ke4+-
    So; therefore this is the last try of defense for White.
    52. Ke2


    Game: Game 9248319
  12. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    12 Nov '12 11:453 edits
    Originally posted by jcmessy
    I see where you coming from. I overlook that simple reply..
    The alternatives:
    (A.) 53.g5 Rc3; 54.Ke2 d3; 55.Kxe3 d2+ wins the Rook @ h3.
    (B.) 53.h6 Rc3; 54.Ke2 d3+ 55.Kf3 d2; 56.Rh1 Rc1-+
    (C.) 53. Rh1 Rc3+ 54.Ke2 Ke4+-
    So; therefore this is the last try of defense for White.
    52. Ke2

    [fen]8/8/5k2/p1r4P/3p2P1/4p2R/P3K3/8 -- b[/fen]
    Game: Game 9248319
    I think the obvious move would then be 52...Rc2+ and if 53.Kd1 Rc3 threatening 54...e2+ winning the h3 Rook. Then if 54.Ke2 d3+ or 54.Ke1 Ke5 and Ke4 to protect the e3 pawn in preparation for d3.
  13. Standard memberjcmessy
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    13 Nov '12 08:06
    RJHinds, I think I posted a wrong diagram.
    Below is the last position after 50.Rh3 Kf6; 51.h6

    now it's black to move...

    Game 9248319
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    13 Nov '12 11:378 edits
    Originally posted by jcmessy
    RJHinds, I think I posted a wrong diagram.
    Below is the last position after 50.Rh3 Kf6; 51.h6

    now it's black to move...
    [fen]8/8/5k1P/p1r5/3pp1P1/7R/P3K3/8 -- b[/fen]
    Game 9248319
    I was going by your actual game up to move 50.Kd2 as I pointed out in my previous post.
    Then I recommened You play 50...Kf6 for Black, so the following is the way the game would have went up to your 51.Rh3! for White.

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    Therefore, the following is the position I was analyzing



    Your revised diagram has two extra moves for White without Black making a move as I see it.
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