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  1. 17 Aug '12 07:54
    http://www.jmrw.com/Chess/Timman/base.htm
  2. 19 Aug '12 11:44
    Jan Timman, you don't hear much from him but he's one of the best players never to become world champion and probably the best dutch player of all time.
  3. Standard member hedonist
    peacedog's keeper
    20 Aug '12 02:51
    Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
    Jan Timman, you don't hear much from him but he's one of the best players never to become world champion and probably the best dutch player of all time.
    I think Jan Timman, along with the likes of Nigal Short, were unlucky to be under, probably, the two best players ever.

    Namely Kasparov/Karpov.

    So both will be confined too footnotes in the history of chess.
  4. 20 Aug '12 09:40
    Originally posted by hedonist
    I think Jan Timman, along with the likes of Nigal Short, were unlucky to be under, probably, the two best players ever.

    Namely Kasparov/Karpov.

    So both will be confined too footnotes in the history of chess.
    Agreed, Kasparov is certainly #1 and Karpov is a contended for the #2 spot.
    Timman's games are worth checking out, he has a very interesting attacking style.
  5. 22 Aug '12 00:08
    Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
    Jan Timman, you don't hear much from him but he's one of the best players never to become world champion and probably the best dutch player of all time.
    Max Euwe's the only Dutch player to become world champion (1935-37).
    While Alekhine was not quite at his best in losing the 1935 match to Euwe,
    Kramnik has said that Alekhine's victory in the 1937 match was 'not a piece
    of cake for Alekhine; this myth should be dispelled.'
  6. 22 Aug '12 02:22
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Max Euwe's the only Dutch player to become world champion (1935-37).
    While Alekhine was not quite at his best in losing the 1935 match to Euwe,
    Kramnik has said that Alekhine's victory in the 1937 match was 'not a piece
    of cake for Alekhine; this myth should be dispelled.'
    Okay, I'll believe you here, but does that make Euwe stronger than Timman?

    I guess it doesn't matter much but I always had this idea that Timman was stronger, since Euwe is often considered the weakest world champion.
  7. 22 Aug '12 02:32
    Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
    Okay, I'll believe you here, but does that make Euwe stronger than Timman?

    I guess it doesn't matter much but I always had this idea that Timman was stronger, since Euwe is often considered the weakest world champion.
    I cannot say for certain whether Max Euwe was stronger than Jan Timman
    because it's very hard to compare players from such different periods.
    Euwe was a mathematician; he never considered himself a full-time professional
    chess player. He certainly did very well as an amateur in chess.
  8. 22 Aug '12 11:36
    Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
    Okay, I'll believe you here, but does that make Euwe stronger than Timman?

    I guess it doesn't matter much but I always had this idea that Timman was stronger, since Euwe is often considered the weakest world champion.
    Often considered by whom? I know Keene said that, but then, he also wrote that Euwe's victory over Alekhine was nearly entirely to do with the latter's alcohol problem. Since it is well documented that Alekhine stayed off the bottle for both those matches, I would very much like a more reliable evaluation.

    Richard
  9. 22 Aug '12 11:53
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I cannot say for certain whether Max Euwe was stronger than Jan Timman because it's very hard to compare players from such different periods.
    Euwe was a mathematician; he never considered himself a full-time professional chess player. He certainly did very well as an amateur in chess.
    He did better as an amateur than (briefly) as a professional! This probably had psychological reasons: he had a mind that was very good at keeping itself busy and organised, but not if he had to focus on a single occupation. He needed the distraction, or rather the time-out, that his "real" job provided.
    There is some reason to believe that if he hadn't taken the KNVB's offer of a professional salary after the 1935 match, with the full-time chess playing that entailed, he would have at least had a much better chance of winning the 1937 match. As it was, by the time the match came around, he was already "played out" in simuls and demonstrations. Never mind the lower quality of those opponents - it was the sheer quantity of them, and the lack of let-off, that deteriorated his later play.

    As for the higher standard of Karpov and Kasparov: well, maybe. But we mustn't forget that Euwe had Alekhine to contend with, and Botwinnik, and Capablanca was still around as well. He played them all, and beat them all (and lost to them all, as well.)

    Richard
  10. 22 Aug '12 12:14 / 1 edit
    "Look at that black guy: he has such a nice girl!", that was a frequent joke man could hear in former Yugoslavia when Timman had played. He had been married with a Suriname psychologist...

    He used to play huge number of openings as both Black and White: his repertoire was very wide, as if he had no personal taste; he played everything.
  11. 22 Aug '12 12:31
    A weak World Champion (?)

    For an amatuer player to win the World title against Alekhine of people
    after being at one time 3-0 down in the match was an incredible result.

    Yes Alekhine underestimated him (but not that much because Alekhine had
    a return match should he lose clause written into the 1935 match contract.)

    Much has been made of the condition that Alekhine was in health wise
    during the 1935 match and the lose of his title was down to that.
    Forgetting to neatly add that during the two years between 1935 and 1937
    Euwe met Alekhine 3 times in tournament play winning 2 and drawing one.

    So when did Alekhine suddenly stop smoking, drinking and chasing women?
    One week before the return match?

    The general understanding is Alekhine lived the life of a monk in those
    two years to get himself fit. (yet he lost the first game of the return match.)
    Alekhine was a brilliant player, in my opinion just behind Kasparov and Fischer.
    But he was human and human chess players come up with all kinds of excuses
    when they lose.
    He was in poor form, he underestimated Euwe, Euwe was at his peak.
    A few years earlier Euwe won Hastings ahead of Capablanca so by this
    reckoning we have to assume that Capablanca was also drunk everyday.

    Euwe played some beautiful and instrucitve games of chess and his
    litrature output help players progress all over the world.

    Finally we must not forget his greatest of the board moment.
    It was his behind scenes diplomacy that enabled the Fischer - Spassky '72
    match to take place.
    Sadly this skill was tested to it's extreme for the Fischer - Kaprov match.
    Fischer's demands were too many and too much.
  12. 22 Aug '12 13:50
    Originally posted by Shallow Blue
    Often considered by whom? I know Keene said that, but then, he also wrote that Euwe's victory over Alekhine was nearly entirely to do with the latter's alcohol problem. Since it is well documented that Alekhine stayed off the bottle for both those matches, I would very much like a more reliable evaluation.

    Richard
    Often considered by chess players. Just do a google search for weakest chess world champ, you will consistently find Euwe mentioned. I don't really care if he was or not, it is impossible to determine anyway. You only have popular opinion on such a matter and that is not worth much.
  13. 22 Aug '12 13:55
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    A weak World Champion (?)

    For an amatuer player to win the World title against Alekhine of people
    after being at one time 3-0 down in the match was an incredible result.

    Yes Alekhine underestimated him (but not that much because Alekhine had
    a return match should he lose clause written into the 1935 match contract.)

    Much has been made of the c ...[text shortened]... o it's extreme for the Fischer - Kaprov match.
    Fischer's demands were too many and too much.
    So who is the weakest world champ? 😛
  14. 22 Aug '12 18:40 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
    So who is the weakest world champ? 😛
    Whilst not wishing to dis him, my vote for weakest World Champion would be for Stan Vaughan.
    ( see http://www.wcfchess.org/wp/about-stan-vaughan/ )
  15. 22 Aug '12 19:02
    Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
    So who is the weakest world champ? 😛
    Perhaps one of these winners of the FIDE world championship (knock-out)
    tournament (though it's very hard to compare them to Max Euwe):

    Alexander Khalifman (FIDE world champion 1999-2000) peak rating 2702
    Rustam Kasimdzhanov (FIDE world champion 2004-2005) peak rating 2706