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  1. Standard member hunterknox
    Hopeless romantic
    07 Oct '10 12:20
    A impressive display of technique from the "recent checkmates"

    Game 5245327

    It's not to my taste to underpromote when it's clearly so inefficient, but fair play to Zenic, he got there eventually.

    I might have to reconsider my policy of trading down to K + N + B vs K on the defensive side, on the basis that no-one can win that in the real world if the defending king's not stupidly prone.
  2. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    07 Oct '10 15:02
    I've seen people win KNB with 5 seconds left. I can do it in about 20 seconds at my best. probably not that fast right now though, as I haven't done it in a while. I'd need at least a minute right now. in the real world you're definitely going to lose a good portion of the defending side battles.

    that said, I've had it 3 times in blitz, always failing to win. but it was always with less than a minute left, and I almost got it every time. the most painful was timing out one move to mate.. 😞
  3. 08 Oct '10 11:26
    Originally posted by hunterknox
    A impressive display of technique from the "recent checkmates"

    Game 5245327

    It's not to my taste to underpromote when it's clearly so inefficient, but fair play to Zenic, he got there eventually.

    I might have to reconsider my policy of trading down to K + N + B vs K on the defensive side, on the basis that no-one can win that in the real world if the defending king's not stupidly prone.
    Kudos to Zenic for having the confidence to under promote and pulling it off. Very well played! 🙂
  4. Subscriber Paul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    08 Oct '10 11:55
    Originally posted by lausey
    Kudos to Zenic for having the confidence to under promote and pulling it off. Very well played! 🙂
    Since it is OK to use books on the site, everyone should be able to do this. If the opportunity arose, I think I would underpromote simply to do it as practice.

    Especially if I could have promoted to immediate mating material such as a rook or queen, and my opponent wants to play it out- at least I already know they intend to play it out, so I wouldn't have to worry about offending them.
  5. 08 Oct '10 16:49 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by lausey
    Kudos to Zenic for having the confidence to under promote and pulling it off. Very well played! 🙂
    Zenic has had some drama's with this pure KBN v K ending.

    Dates refer to the time when the last move was made.

    June 2008 Game 4930810 Zenic wins. He knows how to do this.

    July 2009 Game 6410233 Zenic wins

    Nov 2009 Game 6631710 Zenic losses but allows his opponent to
    over step the 50 moves. It takes buterflyking 67 moves.

    Dec 2009 Game 6062953 Zenic wins

    Jan 2010 Game 5706135 Zenic wins

    Feb 2010 Game 5720194 Zenic wins

    However here is the punch line.

    in Nov 2009 Game 6410293 Zenic suddenly forgot how to do it.
    (despite doing it in June 2008 and July 2009)
    Zenic wanders about for 89 moves and then with just one move from mate.

    pint o guinness - Zenic



    White's in check and after 154.Kh1 Bd5 is mate.

    White must have been waiting for this moment
    because he suddenly hits the claim draw button 🙂
  6. Standard member hunterknox
    Hopeless romantic
    08 Oct '10 16:57
    Is it legal (on this site) to use books in the endgame? That is interesting. I'd have thought they'd be the equivalent of a tablebase. Still, I think I'd have to spend a few hours with a book to pull off KNB from that position (mate in 27 from move 62 with best play). Kudos indeed!
  7. Standard member hunterknox
    Hopeless romantic
    08 Oct '10 16:59
    ...White must have been waiting for this moment
    because he suddenly hits the claim draw button 🙂
    Cruel. And very, very funny!
  8. 08 Oct '10 17:28
    Books are allowed. In the old C.C. days books were allowed.
  9. Standard member SwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    08 Oct '10 18:05 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by hunterknox
    Is it legal (on this site) to use books in the endgame? That is interesting. I'd have thought they'd be the equivalent of a tablebase. Still, I think I'd have to spend a few hours with a book to pull off KNB from that position (mate in 27 from move 62 with best play). Kudos indeed!
    A tablebase will give you the best move against ANY black response, and no understanding of technique is required; you just copy the move. A book cannot possibly cover every Black response and thus it is up to the reader to understand the technique well enough to give mate even if Black chooses a move that's not in the book.
  10. 10 Oct '10 03:29
    I have literally played hundreds of games with this ending. I've played it so much I could play it blindfold. OTB, if an opponent refused to resign a lost position, many times I under-promote and play this ending. Another ending I play frequently in blitz, and on chess servers is KQ v KR.

    The reason I'm writing this post is that these ending are impossible to play on many other chess servers because it is a common mistake in coding to allow a 50 move draw in 50 ply instead of 100 ply. I have sent these servers messages, and even actual source code and they still have not corrected the error. These sites must be sharing code thus they share the common mistake in code.

    Has anyone else noticed this mistake on other servers?
  11. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    10 Oct '10 12:58 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by petrovitch
    I have literally played hundreds of games with this ending. I've played it so much I could play it blindfold. OTB, if an opponent refused to resign a lost position, many times I under-promote and play this ending. Another ending I play frequently in blitz, and on chess servers is KQ v KR.

    The reason I'm writing this post is that these ending are impo ...[text shortened]... ey share the common mistake in code.

    Has anyone else noticed this mistake on other servers?
    edit: ignore previous, misread your post...


    haven't seen 50ply error anywhere.
  12. Standard member JonathanB of London
    Curb Your Enthusiasm
    10 Oct '10 18:14
    Originally posted by petrovitch
    I have literally played hundreds of games with this ending
    You must be getting my share.

    In 25 years of proper club chess (and a decade of playing the game before that) I've never had K+B+N v K on either side.

    Never OTB, never in rapidplay, never via correspondence (electronic or by post), never in blitz, never in casual games. Never.
  13. Subscriber Paul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    10 Oct '10 23:35
    Originally posted by JonathanB of London
    You must be getting my share.

    In 25 years of proper club chess (and a decade of playing the game before that) I've never had K+B+N v K on either side.

    Never OTB, never in rapidplay, never via correspondence (electronic or by post), never in blitz, never in casual games. Never.
    Me neither, with over 1000 games each in OTB and on this site.
  14. 13 Oct '10 01:09
    Chess is a game of perfect information according to game theory. It is my opinion that chess is a game of chance for players rated less than 1800 (this rating is arbitrary). For example, players rated less than 1800 may understand fundamental opening theory, have the ability to solve tactical problems with ease, etc., but they lack the ability to create these positions in their games. It is by chance that positions known by the player appear in their games. For example, I have never seen a Lucena Position in games of such players while this is typical in GM games.

    I enjoy KBN v K and KQ v KR endings so many times I plan for these endings. Even if they know these endings, most players try to avoid them. That is why they are not in your games. How many times have you had KRB v KR endings?

    It's like learning a new word. You make the comment, "I've never heard that word before," but then you hear it a dozen times that same day. It's not because the word had never been used in your presence before --it's because you didn't know it.

    Most guitar players could never improvise a solo to the 12-bar blues. Some players have memorized the minor pentatonic scale while others have learned hundreds of licks. It is much more difficult to feel (plan) the lead for each bar.

    Philidor's Position is not found in games of lesser players, and it is not found in GM game by chance. "God doesn't play dice."
  15. Subscriber Paul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    13 Oct '10 01:27
    Originally posted by petrovitch
    Chess is a game of perfect information according to game theory. It is my opinion that chess is a game of chance for players rated less than 1800 (this rating is arbitrary). For example, players rated less than 1800 may understand fundamental opening theory, have the ability to solve tactical problems with ease, etc., but they lack the ability to create ...[text shortened]... f lesser players, and it is not found in GM game by chance. "God doesn't play dice."
    My experience has been the opposite in some respects- I have seen Lucena and Philidor positions in many amateur games, although many of them were incorrectly played once the positions appeared!

    On the other hand, I have hardly ever seen one of those positions in a GM game, except in the notes. Usually they agree to draw or one person resigns before they actually get there, because both players see it coming.