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  1. 15 Dec '07 16:29 / 1 edit
    I recently got squashed OTB as black in a Keres Attack (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4). I chose to play 6... h6, and admittedly forgot the exact line. I just wondered what other people would recommend as black after 6. g4?
  2. 15 Dec '07 17:00
    I would reccomend formulating a wining plan that would either mate, timeout or force a resignation from your opponent.
    I'm good eh?
  3. Standard member najdorfslayer
    The Ever Living
    15 Dec '07 17:12 / 1 edit
    Play the Scheveningen via the Najdorf move order. That s what most GM's do.

    However if you insist on playing the Scheveningen move order I would play 6...h6 too!
  4. 15 Dec '07 17:23
    Originally posted by najdorfslayer
    Play the Scheveningen via the Najdorf move order. That s what most GM's do.

    However if you insist on playing the Scheveningen move order I would play 6...h6 too!
    Yeah. I don't fancy learning to defend a Najdorf set up though. Does anyone have experience with this? Would there be many lines to learn? I suspect that there probably is but would be keen to hear how others have found it.
  5. Standard member najdorfslayer
    The Ever Living
    15 Dec '07 17:55
    Originally posted by tapestry
    Yeah. I don't fancy learning to defend a Najdorf set up though. Does anyone have experience with this? Would there be many lines to learn? I suspect that there probably is but would be keen to hear how others have found it.
    I have frequently myself played he Schevy via a Najdorf move order. The main problem is you must learn 6.Bg5 set-ups.
  6. 15 Dec '07 19:22 / 1 edit
    If you want to avoid the Keres attack you can either play the Najdorf or Taimanov move order (although this forces Nc6). However, I think Black is fine in the Keres. Objectively, I think White's edge is no bigger than in other sound and reliable openings; the main problem is dealing with White's initiative. I think the easiest and maybe even best way to approach this is with d5, a move Black often strives for in the Sicilian.

    For example:

    1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4 h6 7. h4 Nc6 (or Be7) 8. Rg1 d5 9. Bb5 Bd7 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxd5 exd5 12. Be3 (or Qe2+) Be7

    White to move

    I hope that helps.
  7. Donation !~TONY~!
    1...c5!
    15 Dec '07 19:36
    13. Qd2 is supposed to be quite dangerous for Black. Grab the h-pawn at your own peril!
  8. 16 Dec '07 02:15
    Originally posted by tapestry
    I recently got squashed OTB as black in a Keres Attack (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4). I chose to play 6... h6, and admittedly forgot the exact line. I just wondered what other people would recommend as black after 6. g4?
    Last time I had a look at this line I think 6...a6 was quite well regarded. But as others have pointed out in this thread, it may be significant that a lot of Scheveningen players prefer to play a Najdorf move order.
  9. 16 Dec '07 03:10
    Originally posted by najdorfslayer
    I have frequently myself played he Schevy via a Najdorf move order. The main problem is you must learn 6.Bg5 set-ups.
    Bg5 isn't that bad.
    6. ... e6
    7. f4 Be7 should be equal.
    it's not TOO complicated.
    but if you are afraid of potential complications, you should not be playing 1. ... c5 to begin with.
  10. 16 Dec '07 03:53 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by rubberjaw30
    Bg5 isn't that bad.
    6. ... e6
    7. f4 Be7 should be equal.
    it's not TOO complicated.
    but if you are afraid of potential complications, you should not be playing 1. ... c5 to begin with.
    Often times in the Bg5 lines black can't castle, and has to keep his K in the center of the board that is in danger of being ripped open at any time. That's not something that is to every Sicilian player's taste.
  11. 16 Dec '07 06:26 / 1 edit
    So what? The king is safer in the center than it would be castled. The h6-g5 maneuver is very effective and Black controls the center.

    I wish chess players would evaluate the position for what it is rather than using general principles full of exceptions. Castling is good if it provides better king safety, but sometimes it doesn't and it is a lot safer in the center. Similarly, it often doesn't make sense to castle if your king is better placed in the center, like in an endgame.
  12. 16 Dec '07 06:55
    Originally posted by exigentsky
    So what? The king is safer in the center than it would be castled. The h6-g5 maneuver is very effective and Black controls the center.

    I wish chess players would evaluate the position for what it is rather than using general principles full of exceptions. Castling is good if it provides better king safety, but sometimes it doesn't and it is a lot safer ...[text shortened]... doesn't make sense to castle if your king is better placed in the center, like in an endgame.
    So its not to every Sicilian player's tastes, which was all I said about it. I didn't evaluate it, nor did I say - nor even imply - that it was in any way bad for black.

    You need to chill out a bit before you start lecturing people about something that you read into their comments that wasn't even on their mind when they made them.

    By the way I find it a little ironic that you of all people are making this argument, having only just recently tried to make a case about how "risky" the Sicilian was and how black should instead play 1... e5 because it was more "inline with general opening principles."
  13. 16 Dec '07 07:24
    Originally posted by scandium
    So its not to every Sicilian player's tastes, which was all I said about it. I didn't evaluate it, nor did I say - nor even imply - that it was in any way bad for black.

    You need to chill out a bit before you start lecturing people about something that you read into their comments that wasn't even on their mind when they made them.

    By the way ...[text shortened]... uld instead play 1... e5 because it was more "inline with general opening principles."
    Maybe I did read too far into it, but you haven't read far enough. Ask yourself why it's not to every Sicilian player's taste if the king is safer in the center? It's because they see the king in the center and almost immediately think that it's bad since it's not castled. This implication is what my post was aimed at.

    Moreover, you're both completely misunderstanding me and taking my words out of context. The original thread asked specifically for an opening that is fairly safe (without being totally passive) and I suggested against the Sicilian and in favor of e5. The Sicilian, even in the safest lines is quite double-edged and it is easy to lose after a few seemingly small errors. Kasparov himself in his DVDs on the Najdorf stated that it was a risky opening and explained that he would explore the "slipper marshlands of the Najdorf." I didn't suggest that e5 was better, only that it is easier to play and achieve reasonable positions because it is more in line with general principles which are very familiar. A lot of Sicilian moves seem a bit counter-intuitive until you get a decent understanding of it. It isn't simply about bringing the pieces out. I'm saying this while being a Sicilian player myself so obviously I like the opening and would gladly defend it against anyone. There is no discrepancy between my comments here and there. Next time I won't be so detailed and will simply say READ CAREFULLY.
  14. 16 Dec '07 07:52
    Originally posted by exigentsky
    Maybe I did read too far into it, but you haven't read far enough. Ask yourself why it's not to every Sicilian player's taste if the king is safer in the center? It's because they see the king in the center and almost immediately think that it's bad since it's not castled. This implication is what my post was aimed at.

    Moreover, you're both completely ...[text shortened]... ere and there. Next time I won't be so detailed and will simply say READ CAREFULLY.
    Fair enough. Even though I've played the Sicilian at least 3, maybe 4 years now, I've never had to grapple with this particular question since I don't play the Najdorf.

    My impression of the line with Bg5 though is that you have to have some pretty cool nerves and a real taste for tactical complications. Even though the Sicilian is double edged, this line has always struck me as being much more so than many others - for both players - and it seems easier to go wrong on either side in it than in other Sicilian lines (keeping in mind I don't play the Najdorf take my impression for what its worth).

    As an aside, I like the kind of messy position that black gets in many of the Bg5 lines. His K is often in the center but white doesn't have an easy time of it either, and my impression is that his isn't necessarily much safer.
  15. 16 Dec '07 11:58
    I don't play it but to quote MCO14th ed.

    '6...e5?! has confused many white players, but a clear solution has been found- 7.Bb5+ Bd7 8.Bxd7+ Qxd7 9.Nf5 h5 10.gxh5 Nxh5 11.Bh6! Nc6 12.Qxh5 Ne7 13.Qg5 Nxf5 14.exf5 Rxh6 15.Nd5 is a plus for white but may confuse them over the board.

    Other alternatives are 6...Be7 and 6...Nc6.