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  1. 27 Sep '10 00:04 / 4 edits
    Against the french i usually try the KIA, its easy and the strategy is fairly simple, get in e5, try to
    dominate the dark squares kingside, swap off blacks dark squared bishop and see if you can mate his king,
    however i have always had trouble when black denies me the opportunity of getting in e5,there is no plan b so to speak.
    In a recent game which i lost, i once again found myself in the following position,


    1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nc6 5. g3 Nf6 6. Bg2 Be7 7. O-O dxe4 8.
    dxe4 e5



    I am currently reading Andrew Soltis pawn structure chess, looking at middle game strategies
    from the perspective of the relative positions of the pawns, looking at the above formation, can
    anyone suggest a plan of action? a plan b so to speak. It seems to me that black has a kind of
    bind, pawns on c5 and e5, also white can contest the d4 square with c3, but black cannot
    contest the d5 square which is now firmly in white control - kind regards in advance Robbie.
  2. 27 Sep '10 00:34 / 1 edit
    This is a tough one.

    First of all, let me say that you might find studying the actual King's Indian Defense useful.
    1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 Nbd7 7.0-0 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 is a direct transposition with the other side having an extra move.
    See how black plays it with a tempo less, and you will really be on to something.

    You have a position with little or no pawn play here.

    Your main trump, as you mentioned is the square d5.
    If you can lodge a piece there, it can't be chased away by a pawn.
    Black can put a knight on d4, but c3 will always flick it away.

    You need the maneuver Nc4 with the possibility of staying there (perhaps with a4) or running to d5 via e3.

    First, you need a good move to defend e4 and prevent a queen trade. This is a lot harder to win without queens.

    Here I am having a problem though.

    1.Qe2 can be met by the messy Nd4, possibly.

    1.c3 weakens d3 and allows Qd3. This looks a little pesky, but it really might not be all that bad for white.

    For instance 1.c3 Qd3 2.Qa4 or 1.c3 Qd3 2.Re1 with Bf1 to follow if necessary.

    The ideal formation for white is Qe2, pawn on c3, Nc4, and rook on d file.

    Then, little by little you have to try to get more coverage of d5.

    Maybe f3, to support e4 and free the bishop to move to f1 and possibly c4.

    It's just a slow build up over the d5 square.

    You can't really play for f4 or anything like that without taking a few positional risks in my opinion.

    There is a similar position in the Ruy Lopez.





    Winning from this position repeatedly, was Fischer's bread and butter.

    You might want to find a few of his Ruy's for more ideas.

    I'm sorry I can't be of more help, but this is the kind of position where I just know a few general positional ideas and just have to play it out and see.

    There is no guarantee that white has an advantage with the King's Indian Attack. A lot of the positions are equal but imbalanced.
    I'd say this is equal, but not without chances for white.

    I hope this helps some.

    I am just remembering another possibility, borrowed from Bobby.
    Ndf1, Ne3, Nh4, and Nhf5 ... if black plays g6 the h6 square will be a nice square for a white bishop or knight. This leads to kingside possibilities.
  3. Subscriber Paul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    27 Sep '10 02:18 / 2 edits
    Hi Robbie,

    I have been playing the KIA for over 20 years and have over 300 OTB games with it to my credit, so I can speak from experience on the position, although not masterly, of course!

    Mr. Buchman is very correct both about looking at the KID, and also similar positions in the Ruy.

    In the particular position, I think it is dynamically equal, although I personally score very well from it, and I consider white's position far easier to play. EDIT: I think I was sloppy in the previous sentence. When the position arises out of a KID reversed and it's black to move in the position, I think the statement is true, but when it comes out of the French where black is down two tempi (one because he's black in a KID reversed, and one because he took two moves in the opening to move his pawn to e5), I think white retains a plus.

    A tempo doesn't always mean much, but I think if you give any KID player two extra moves in a normal KID position, they would salivate at the prospect. It's NOT that simple, but I think there is some truth and value there to be had.

    (I should add as an aside that I get it from 1. g3 or 1. Nf3, but it transposes.)

    White needs to do three things:

    1) He needs to control d4, to prevent a knight taking up shop there;

    2) He needs to control g4 with h3, to prevent the black bishop from arriving there, and keeping his f3 knight mobile; and

    3) He needs to overprotect his e4 pawn, for all the reasons overprotection exists as a concept.

    From the position, my personal approach is to play Re1 first. It allows you to play c3 later, as ...Qd3 runs into Re3 if necessary.

    If black gets in ....Bg4, I play h3 and if black exchanges, I mostly recapture with the queen, although sometimes it is advantageous to recapture with the bishop, then redeploy it to b3 or even c4 via d1 or e2. Botvinnik did that with great effect on occasion, and it is the type of unstereotyped thinking necessary to play the KIA well.

    Below are two very famous games with analogous positions, and I think you can learn much by studying them carefully. I hope this helps!


    First, a game from the young Fischer



    Now a game from Leonid Stein, which is an anthology piece found in practically every KIA book in print.

  4. 27 Sep '10 06:16
    In the original post first diagram I would play 9.b3 intending 10.Bb2
    since e5 looks like a target.
  5. 27 Sep '10 13:11
    A Kia is quite an attractive proposition given its current 7 year warranty but I question its resale value?

    oh, you didn't mean the car?
  6. 27 Sep '10 14:47
    Originally posted by Habeascorp
    A Kia is quite an attractive proposition given its current 7 year warranty but I question its resale value?

    oh, you didn't mean the car?
    get a mitsubishi truck, no need for wussing around in a KIA!
  7. Standard member ChessPraxis
    Cowboy From Hell
    27 Sep '10 15:00
    Gee, I don't know Rob, maybe try playing a NORMAL French.
  8. 27 Sep '10 16:35 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by ChessPraxis
    Gee, I don't know Rob, maybe try playing a NORMAL French.
    no way, advance variation plays right into his hands i get hit with ...e6 and ...c5 and my powerful centre gets blown away, and i hate Winawer, even Fischer knew it was anti positional but had big trouble against it. Plus as Paulfromfics and the illustrious Leggy have pointed out, white should have an advantage, for he controls both d4 and d5. I plan to post some stuff when i find the time, its really interesting in fact what the two Pauls have written, for as Paulfromfics demonstrated , the pawn formation originally arose from the Spanish and it was the Russian Rauzer who first realised way back in the 1930s that white gets and edge because of the pawn formation, despite the fact that he may give up the d file.

    Andrew Soltis in fact covers it in his book with some wonderful illustrative games which i hope to post, but i am working with concrete at the moment and i cannot let it set until then i can only dream about posting all the goodies
  9. 27 Sep '10 17:19 / 2 edits
    Robbie Oh dear...what has become of you?

    Don't fianchetto the White King's Bishop.

    Everytime the two Paul's go near the white pieces the King's Bishop hides.
    These two will have to playing the Catalan next.

    Don't do this to your King's Bishop.

    Morphy did this to Bishops only 4 times and those were off hand games
    v Maurian when he had all but given up the game in 1867.

    Now sling that crappy book on the fire and play the Alpin Gambit.

    3.Be3!



    If it was good enough for Paul Keres then it'a good enough for the likes of us.



    Do not fall for the trap that a lot of first timers fall into when trying this.



    And that is all you need to know.

    Now get out there and Develop and Attack
  10. 27 Sep '10 20:23
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Robbie Oh dear...what has become of you?

    Don't fianchetto the White King's Bishop.

    Everytime the two Paul's go near the white pieces the King's Bishop hides.
    These two will have to playing the Catalan next.

    Don't do this to your King's Bishop.

    Morphy did this to Bishops only 4 times and those were off hand games
    v Maurian when he had all ...[text shortened]... need to know.

    Now get out there and [b]Develop and Attack
    [/b]
    actualy dear Greenpawn, you have been a mentor to me and an inspiration for many, alas my friend i am no longer a gambiteer , i want to play positional chess. Why? A friend whom I used to play frequently related how he once sat through a piano recital, the performance was seemingly effortless, no showiness, just virtuosity. He related it to me and how it struck him that chess should be like that as well, not flashy but solid and unassuming. Therefore my mentor, i am hanging up my pirate flag and taking on an air of respectability and trying to learn positional chess, its certainly not effortless but i hope it may pay off eventually with a greater understanding. You have i know read Retis, masters of the chess board, in which he describes the development of the game, first Andersen with his incredible imagination, Morphy was able to overcome him because he was the first ever truly positional player, then came Steintz, his disciple Lasker, Capablanca the positional player and Reti himself. Reti remarked that even Andersen developed a positional style near the end of his career and so it holds my friend, i am now getting my kicks through the far reaching scheme of things rather than the beautiful combinations that enthral us all
  11. 27 Sep '10 20:38 / 6 edits
    for paulfromfics and morphys maniacs (peace be upon them) very own Paul 'leggy the King', Leggett

    i would if i may like to relate some thoughts from Soltis own book, pawn structure chess. The
    very first development of the position under discussion was exploited by Rauzer in the 1930s,
    and it came as Paulfromfics pointed out, a Ruy Lopez, check it out.


    position after 14.dxc5!



    i dont know how to annotate the game so i shall just put in my thoughts,

    17.Ng5 seems excellent, preparing to swap off the defender of the weak d5 square and blacks 'good bishop',

    19.Nf5!, the 'good bishop is gone for sure',

    20.exf5!, this pawn capture Soltis states, allows white to mount a pawn storm on the Kingside,
    due to his control of the light squares, especially e4 which he gets for his night. Soltis comments ,
    that the open file was practically useless to black and it seems that whites control of
    both d4 and d5, were more than enough for losing the file. what seems apparent is that effort
    should be made to reduce blacks control by targeting light squared bishop, giving him a bad
    bishop, reducing his control of d5 in the process and in other games i have noticed that the f6
    knight is also target, sometime with Bg5, again getting rid og whites bad bishop and reducing
    black control of d5. this mat be bread and butter to you guys, but to me, its big news


    ill post some other games later and if someone can explain how to annotate the games, i would
    be greatful.
  12. 28 Sep '10 13:52
    Hi Rob.

    " I want to play positional chess. "

    Then why are you weakening your pawn structure to fianchetto a Bishop?

    I like the piano reference but beauty is in the eye (or in the case the ear)
    of the beholder.

    There was a guy in the Royal Oak who used to play a melody on the bar piano,
    he started of with the boogie-woogie, some rag time, then slipped into rock 'n' roll,
    a bit of blues and finished with the Piano Concerto by Tchaikovsky.

    He did all this effortlessly.

    It's no good trying to master one style, you have to be adept in them all.

    You play 1.e4 and Black replies with 1...e6.

    He is not up for an open game, he wants a toiling positional struggle.

    Do you think 2.d3 is going to worry him? Not at all.

    But 3.Be3 and he knows he's going to have swim in a tactical sea
    something 1..e6 was meant to prevent.

    So lower that yellow duster you are now flying, hoist back up the
    Skull and Crossbones and go in all guns a blazing.
    (if you run out of ammo then ram him).

    You will lose a leg, an arm and an eye. But so will the other guy.

    To add notes then put the note inbetween moves using these {} leave a space.

    Use the 'Reply and Quote' button to look at how it's done.

  13. 28 Sep '10 16:24
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Hi Rob.

    " I want to play positional chess. "

    Then why are you weakening your pawn structure to fianchetto a Bishop?

    I like the piano reference but beauty is in the eye (or in the case the ear)
    of the beholder.

    There was a guy in the Royal Oak who used to play a melody on the bar piano,
    he started of with the boogie-woogie, some rag time, t ...[text shortened]... enger ship with Captain Timid at the helm, break out the cucumber sandwiches.} [/pgn]
    you see pawn dude i am really a wussy, indeed i gave up fishing because i did not like hurting the worms or the fish. These tactical melees are for fearless buccaneers and the young at heart, not old codgers with kids, i need something quiet and solid, something positional in nature. What is more i don't have the talent for them, i like little moves, subtle moves that one plays trembling with ones pinky, not those that nail the queens knight on to d5 with a nail gun so that it screeches as chalk on a chalkboard.

    Your comments are of course excellent, black does want a positional battle, and indeed the tactical road has done well for white, Josh Wiatskin in fact mentions the same strategy in the chessmaster series, however his strategy may come undone. I had an excellent game against a player on here, who used the French exclusively but his strategy failed, for i was able to exchange his dark squared bishop, blockade on the dark squares and trade down leaving him with all his pawns on white squares, a rubbish French queens bishop v a mobile knight. It brought me more satisfaction than all the tactical tricks that i had fluked in all my games previously combined. I guess its what rocks your socks oh great and illustrious one!

    The logic of course of 2.d3 is that the bishop shall be fianchetoed, and this is fine, for we have no aspirations of opening the centre but shall try to keep play to the wings, if black does not crash through queenside first, his king shall be given the bums rush from the castle and its always more fun to attack than defend.
  14. 28 Sep '10 16:33
    'oh great and illustrious one! '

    Keep that in I like it.

    Post game you mentioned. Won't knock it, just want to see it.

    (but better hope I cannot spot a tactical shot.)

    Am off air now for a few hours.
  15. 28 Sep '10 18:34 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    'oh great and illustrious one! '

    Keep that in I like it.

    Post game you mentioned. Won't knock it, just want to see it.

    (but better hope I cannot spot a tactical shot.)

    Am off air now for a few hours.
    alas oh great and illustrious one the game has no game history, my finest game as well
    and it has no history! its number is this , 6954046, it was played against Zebano in a
    clan challenge, all i have is the very last diagram.



    notice the blockade on the dark squares though and the restricted French bishop.