King's Indian

The King's Indian after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6.

This position has several deviations from the "normal" Nf3 or Be2, including f3, and h3.

f3, the samisch, prepares g4 and eventually queenside castling and a kingside attack, which appears to be what h3 does as well. However, f3 takes away the f3 square from the knight, but does support the center.

h3, meanwhile, does not take f3 from the knight but it seems the knight would do pretty well on e2 anyway. Also, h3 doesn't help with the center in anyway.

Which move is more logical and which is more flexible? That is my question

Originally posted by MoneyMaker7
The King's Indian after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6.

This position has several deviations from the "normal" Nf3 or Be2, including f3, and h3.

f3, the samisch, prepares g4 and eventually queenside castling and a kingside attack, which appears to be what h3 does as well. However, f3 takes away the f3 square from the knight, but does suppor ...[text shortened]... er in anyway.

Which move is more logical and which is more flexible? That is my question

All these moves have their logic. the most flexible could be 5.Be2 with 2 possible plans 6.Nf3 and 6.Bg5

I had this position after 11 moves in the 5. h3 line.

Here I played Nd7?!, trying to play f5.

I have seen games in the Samisch and other opposite side castling KIDs that black still aimed to play f5.

Is this correct? Or is it simply opening lines for white?

Originally posted by MoneyMaker7
[fen]r1bq1rk1/pp2npbp/3p1np1/3Pp1B1/4P3/2N2N1P/PP1Q1PP1/2KR1B1R b - - 0 11[/fen]

I had this position after 11 moves in the 5. h3 line.

Here I played Nd7?!, trying to play f5.

I have seen games in the Samisch and other opposite side castling KIDs that black still aimed to play f5.

Is this correct? Or is it simply opening lines for white?

As white king is castled queen side black must try to attack there.

I definitely prefer 5 f3. It facilitates a quick P-g4 and P-h4 pawn storm. And sometimes the White King can settle on f2, rather than castling long into a Black Queenside counterattack.

Originally posted by Korch
As white king is castled queen side black must try to attack there.

Why? Black's pawns are pointing King-side which is where he should usually make his play.

Originally posted by MoneyMaker7
[fen]r1bq1rk1/pp2npbp/3p1np1/3Pp1B1/4P3/2N2N1P/PP1Q1PP1/2KR1B1R b - - 0 11[/fen]

I had this position after 11 moves in the 5. h3 line.

Here I played Nd7?!, trying to play f5.

I have seen games in the Samisch and other opposite side castling KIDs that black still aimed to play f5.

Is this correct? Or is it simply opening lines for white?

You mean c5? The knight on c5 is a common theme in the KID. It's a great place for your knight where it can loiter with intent. a5 is often played by black to prevent the knight being pushed away, but in this case, white won't do that. I'd play Nd7, then boot the g bishop with h6, followed up with g5. This creates space for the knight on e7 which is in a rotten place. The king-side pawn push is one way to go. The c-file also looks tempting and you could make a plan around that. I'd stake a claim there, but still go King-side.

EDIT: I might add, don't commit the knight to c5 too soon. From d7 it can swing either side of the board.

Originally posted by buffalobill
Why? Black's pawns are pointing King-side which is where he should usually make his play.

But black have no targets in kingside - they will only weaken own kingside.

Originally posted by Korch
But black have no targets in kingside - they will only weaken own kingside.

Point made. Generally speaking, how would you proceed as black and how would you release the knight on d7?

Originally posted by Korch
But black have no targets in kingside - they will only weaken own kingside.

Hi

It depends.
This kind of attack may affect indirectly the queen's sire.

1.
You may try an attack in f5 in order to liberate the diagonal a1-h8 and point your dark squared bishop directly on b2 and c3.
The explication is the same as in the point 2 below 🙂

2.
Nd7 (and then c5 or b6) seems now the only way to transfer the Knight to the queen's side.
It seems black has now not enough forces on the queen's side to prepare a strong attack there...

3.
The knight from f5 may point e6 and d4.

This move has a defensive function too : f7-f5 liberates the f7 as a way for escape to the king, if white makes a dangerous pawn storm on f and g.

Of course, it's not a general rule...

Cheers
GG

I often play ...Nh5 when freeing my f-Pawn. Is ...Nd7 better?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I often play ...Nh5 when freeing my f-Pawn. Is ...Nd7 better?

When I play the King's Indian, I usually move my knight to e8 to facilitate the ...f5 advance. At e8 it can't be harrassed by any White piece or pawn, and since the rook has no intention of moving to e8, the knight isn't really getting in any piece's way. Also, by not moving the knight to d7, my Queen's Bishop isn't being hemmed in.

Originally posted by buffalobill
Point made. Generally speaking, how would you proceed as black and how would you release the knight on d7?

I would play Nd7 with intention of Nc5

Originally posted by 4gats
Hi

It depends.
This kind of attack may affect indirectly the queen's sire.

1.
You may try an attack in f5 in order to liberate the diagonal a1-h8 and point your dark squared bishop directly on b2 and c3.
The explication is the same as in the point 2 below 🙂

2.
Nd7 (and then c5 or b6) seems now the only way to transfer the Knight to the queen's s es a dangerous pawn storm on f and g.

Of course, it's not a general rule...

Cheers
GG

You wont be able to liberate diagonal a1-h8, nor put knight on f5 if white wont make exchange exf5 (after f5). And in that position they are not obliged to do that.

Originally posted by Korch
You wont be able to liberate diagonal a1-h8, nor put knight on f5 if white wont make exchange exf5 (after f5). And in that position they are not obliged to do that.

maybe you can consider that f5 attacks the center, not necessary only the K side...I also like to play it and it is preatty thematic in KID...it is also used(in GM games) against Samisch even white castles long and attacks with f3-g4(and dont use the argument that I am loosing my games where i use KID 🙂 )