Marshall gambit refuted?

Did you consider 10... Nf4, and if so what did you come up with? I'm too lazy/not smart enough to figure out what would happen, but it looks kind of interesting.

Originally posted by mazziewag
Game 3599000

I just cant find anywhere it went wrong 😕

At the end, f6 was played to lose a pawn but keep better position and bishop pair, BxN would quickly fall apart and lose im pretty sure of that. So the game seems lost by then anyway, right?

My opponent is a GM and personally thinks that the gambit by black is unsound and white can with ...[text shortened]... inely think this game is a refutation of the gambit, but can't see where i could have improved!

Where you went wrong was responding to the Queenside play by White. Nf6 to attack the rook again is what is usually played there. See this game where Leko actually beat Kramink fairly easily with the black side of it:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1309482

Originally posted by mcreynolds
Did you consider 10... Nf4, and if so what did you come up with? I'm too lazy/not smart enough to figure out what would happen, but it looks kind of interesting.

I dismissed this pretty quickly as the following moves seem forced, though i didnt look into it that much so i may have missed something.

1. Nf4? gxf4
2. Bxf4 Rxf4
3. gxf4 Qf3 and it looks pretty hopeless for black

Originally posted by Leaadas
Where you went wrong was responding to the Queenside play by White. Nf6 to attack the rook again is what is usually played there. See this game where Leko actually beat Kramink fairly easily with the black side of it:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1309482

I didnt even consider this move, why not?!

Ill look into it further, it looks as if we have found the missing peice of the jigsaw though!

Look at that game. I think the Marshall is far from being refuted. It still is played at the highest level so don't believe your 'GM' oppenant

The Marshall Gambit by Frank Marshall is played today by top GMs including Adams, Short , Polgar and Leko, remember that game where Kramnik used Fritz to prepare and misjudged a Queen Sac?

Interestingly Kasparov never allowed the Marshall Gambit against him but Karpov allowed it.

I spoke to him and he said that Nf6 is played at master level but in our game, Nf6 loses to either

1. Re1 g4
2. axb5 axb5
3. Rxa8 Rxa8

Or
1. Re1 g4
2. c4 Rfd8
3. axb5 axb5
4. Rxa8 Rxa8
5. Bc2

Where in either case white keeps the extra pawn and will win from there with perfect play - though finding correct moves over the board is hard in CC especially it should be a white win.
He also said he would be pleased to be proved wrong here so if anyone can find any moves to help black draw he will be pleased to hear it. And he also offered me a game as of 10. Nf6 Re1 to see if we could prove him wrong in practise which i might take up.

I didn't like ... f5 too much, I would have preferred Bf5 instead. And I see that in many top-GM games, Bf5 is played before moving the queen. Sargissian won a game as black this year in Wijk aan Zee.

Originally posted by mazziewag
I spoke to him and he said that Nf6 is played at master level but in our game, Nf6 loses to either

1. Re1 g4
2. axb5 axb5
3. Rxa8 Rxa8

Or
1. Re1 g4
2. c4 Rfd8
3. axb5 axb5
4. Rxa8 Rxa8
5. Bc2

Where in either case white keeps the extra pawn and will win from there with perfect play - though finding correct moves over the board is hard in CC ...[text shortened]... e a game as of 10. Nf6 Re1 to see if we could prove him wrong in practise which i might take up.

I don't think g4 is a good move either. The pawn's intent on g5 is to help control the dark squares around the king, since you almost have a complete lock on the white squares. g4 simply gives up control of those squares.

After Re1 you should consider Rae8 or bringing the queen back to g6 and attacking along the white diagonal that you own and he can't do anything about really.

*edit* Sorry got mixed up with the post so it might read funny.

Originally posted by mazziewag
I dismissed this pretty quickly as the following moves seem forced, though i didnt look into it that much so i may have missed something.

1. Nf4? gxf4
2. Bxf4 Rxf4
3. gxf4 Qf3 and it looks pretty hopeless for black

I messed around with this for a while and after 3. Qf3 black can win the knight back with:

3, Qf3 Kh8
4. Qxh3 Bxh3
5. Nf1 Rg8+
6. Ng3 fxg3
and black has R vs B+P

The post that was quoted here has been removed

i am a GM too, I sold my dirt bike and had a garage sale to buy the winning norm required. I am teh chess geenious.

Originally posted by Mephisto2
I didn't like ... f5 too much, I would have preferred Bf5 instead. And I see that in many top-GM games, Bf5 is played before moving the queen. Sargissian won a game as black this year in Wijk aan Zee.

f5?