Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

  1. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    12 Feb '11 05:11 / 1 edit
    This is from a fun little game I played here. (Game 8129433)

    From my analysis, the fastest forced mate for black is after nine moves on his behalf, but please correct me if you find a faster line.



    It's not a particularly difficult mate to think through because of so many forced moves, but it's kind of a fun "chase" mate.

    Black to move.

    Edit: feel free to post your solutions, but if you could "hide" them, that'd be great.
  2. 12 Feb '11 11:19
    You don't need 9 moves.

    mate in four: 1. ... Qe5+ 2.Kd1 (Kf1 Qe1 mate) Nf2+ 3.Kc2 Qf5+ 4. d3 (Kc3 Qd3 mate) Qxd3 mate
  3. 12 Feb '11 14:29
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    [b]This is from a fun little game I played here. (Game 8129433)

    From my analysis, the fastest forced mate for black is after nine moves on his behalf, but please correct me if you find a faster line.
    would anyone care to summarize this 'forced' mate concept from the position wonka has shown? Just asking for benefit of chess amateurs like me since it would appear to us that all mates are forced...6 moves from his game link and 4 moves in Mephisto's solution both of which are faster than an estimated 9 by wonka himself... O_O
  4. 12 Feb '11 21:14 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Iere man
    would anyone care to summarize this 'forced' mate concept from the position wonka has shown? Just asking for benefit of chess amateurs like me since it would appear to us that all mates are forced...6 moves from his game link and 4 moves in Mephisto's solution both of which are faster than an estimated 9 by wonka himself... O_O
    The mate in 9 that wonka is talking about I presume is taking the six move in-game mate, and playing g4 instead of g3, and Qe1+ somewhere in there to lengthen the game. I believe that wonka overlooked the variation that mephisto pointed out, which indeed is the fastest.
  5. 12 Feb '11 21:29
    Originally posted by range blasts
    The mate in 9 that wonka is talking about I presume is taking the six move in-game mate, and playing g4 instead of g3, and Qe1+ somewhere in there to lengthen the game. I believe that wonka overlooked the variation that mephisto pointed out, which indeed is the fastest.
    ok I see now, it's simply chess teminology and a 'worst case scenario' type of estimation\assumption thingy...thx range...
  6. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    13 Feb '11 04:19 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Mephisto2
    You don't need 9 moves.

    [hidden]mate in four: 1. ... Qe5+ 2.Kd1 (Kf1 Qe1 mate) Nf2+ 3.Kc2 Qf5+ 4. d3 (Kc3 Qd3 mate) Qxd3 mate[/hidden]
    Fair enough. Thanks for pointing that out. 🙂

    I felt like 9 moves was a bit extreme, but I couldn't find the shorter mate when I was playing, and I just went with what would still work for me. But I do indeed stand corrected.
  7. Subscriber Paul Leggettonline
    Chess Librarian
    14 Feb '11 00:49
    Originally posted by Iere man
    would anyone care to summarize this 'forced' mate concept from the position wonka has shown? Just asking for benefit of chess amateurs like me since it would appear to us that all mates are forced...6 moves from his game link and 4 moves in Mephisto's solution both of which are faster than an estimated 9 by wonka himself... O_O
    The "forced" part of a forced mate may seem semantic, but the idea behind using the word "forced" is literary shorthand for "assuming the defending player plays the best moves or at least does not blunder and make it easier than it should be".

    The idea is that, from the position, the defender cannot prevent mate even with the best moves.

    The alternative is sometimes called a "helpmate", and it really can refer to any position where there is an immediate mate if the defender makes a mistake.

    When someone is looking for a "forced" mate, they are looking for a sequence that does not depend on a blunder from the defender.

    Paul
  8. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    14 Feb '11 03:33
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    Fair enough. Thanks for pointing that out. 🙂

    I felt like 9 moves was a bit extreme, but I couldn't find the shorter mate when I was playing, and I just went with what would still work for me. But I do indeed stand corrected.
    Looking back at it, I considered the posted mate-in-four but didn't realize my bishop was covering white's escape on the b-file.