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  1. 13 Jan '10 17:03 / 4 edits
    (It turns out cheapo was not the correct terminology here, thanks to Tyrannosauruschex and Greenpawn for pointing that out).


    Before you look at the game, try to find the cheapo yourself. Naka has just played 41...Ng7. You are Aronian. White to move.

    Here's the rest of the game, I was surprised he kept on playing for so long.



    (WTC=World Team Championships)
  2. 13 Jan '10 17:16
    Its a bit clever to be considered a cheapo
  3. 13 Jan '10 17:19 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Tyrannosauruschex
    Its a bit clever to be considered a cheapo
    To be honest, I don't know the precise definition of "cheapo," but this one is very much puzzle-like, and unlike some other deep stuff in super GM level, is quickly accessible for me, and I guess for anyone that likes studying tactics.

    and, what is cheapo by your definition?
  4. 13 Jan '10 17:21
    Lovely - and I got it. (just under a minute I guess).
    A postion with a shot in it is my meat 'n' tatties.

    I first tried to make something of the King and Queen on the same diagonal.

    Then the
    back rank weakness
    appeared.

    The damning question is would I have got it during the game?

    Don't often miss 'em - hard bit for me is setting my opponent up for them.
  5. 13 Jan '10 17:24
    Cheapo is perhaps the wrong term.

    To me a Cheapo is joke trap one plays in a lost postion.
  6. 13 Jan '10 17:25 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Cheapo is perhaps the wrong term.

    To me a Cheapo is joke trap one plays in a lost postion.
    OK then, I thought it meant something like a "relatively easy tactic."
    I'll put a note in the first post.

    To prove I do know some chess terminology, I'd like to point out that the exchange sacrifices of Aronian were what they call a "petrosian sacrifice." (if this is wrong too, please just pm me )
  7. 13 Jan '10 17:44 / 1 edit
    Keep it in the forum, nobody is trying to score points.

    Any Rooks taking a Bishop or Knight is an Exchange Sacrifice.

    These were usually made for a short term tactical gain.
    ie: RxNf6 to open up a King postion.

    The exchange sacs Petrosian made (RxN) were deeper than that.

    No percievable tactical gain but a better placed Knight and a lasting pull
    or misplaced pawns and no way for his opponent to exploit the material gain.

    If you said to me I played a Petrosian style exchange sac.

    I would assumme that you had chopped a well placed Knight or
    a Knight threatening to get well placed with a Rook to make an outpost
    for your own Knight, snuff out of any danger, etc.

    There is no way it can be analsed so the Petrsosian Sac is all the more
    credible.
  8. 13 Jan '10 17:56 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Keep it in the forum, nobody is trying to score points.

    Any Rooks taking a Bishop or Knight is an Exchange Sacrifice.

    These were usually made for a short term tactical gain.
    ie: RxNf6 to open up a King postion.

    The exchange sacs Petrosian made (RxN) were deeper than that.

    No percievable tactical gain but a better placed Knight and a lastin ...[text shortened]... nger, etc.

    There is no way it can be analsed so the Petrsosian Sac is all the more
    credible.
    I was referring to 32.Rc6 in this position.



    There are no immediate tactical gains with that, it's one of those pure sacrifices. If that doesn't convince you, I'll have to dig up Kasparov's predecessors where he gives a very similar example.
  9. 13 Jan '10 18:00
    Personally I found this quite quickly - like a few seconds or so, but then again I was looking for "something" instead of a general move. Maybe that should be something I think about OTB. Always look for the "something".

    As for whether it's a cheapo or not, I think it was just a blunder on his part, but not an obvious one. But that's just me and what do I know?
  10. 13 Jan '10 18:12 / 29 edits
    I found the example anyway:

    In this position, Kasparov annotates the move 31...Qc6 as "a typical Petrosian exchange sacrifice." (don't be surprised if you can't find the exact words, as my edition isn't in English).

    I thought this was very similar to the 32.Rc6 by Aronian above, hanging it to the bishop (thus having the bishop pair) to be recaptured by a pawn which will pose dangerous promotion threats or simply become a bone in the throat. (including the move number!)

    Here's the game Kasparov talks about:



    aargh, what kind of pgn viewer is this?!

    pgn viewer courtesy of HEINZKAT
  11. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    13 Jan '10 18:18
    Originally posted by philidor position
    aargh, what kind of pgn viewer is this?!
    replace the newline/endline ascii characters in the algebraic notation with normal spaces.
  12. 13 Jan '10 18:21
    Originally posted by philidor position
    (It turns out cheapo was not the correct terminology here, thanks to Tyrannosauruschex and Greenpawn for pointing that out).

    [fen]1b4k1/r1r3n1/R1P5/1p1qpPNp/1P3p2/Q4P1P/4B1P1/4BK2 w - - 0 42[/fen]
    Before you look at the game, try to find the cheapo yourself. Naka has just played 41...Ng7. You are Aronian. White to move.

    Here's the rest of t ...[text shortened]... 7 Qd5 52.Qa1 Nxg2 53.Qa6+
    1-0[/pgn]

    (WTC=World Team Championships)
    yay, i got it, after the greenpawn dude hinted that it was the back rank, otherwise i also was looking at the king queen diagonal, but it took maybe five minutes. i doubt i would have found it in a game, although, there is a possibility that i could have fluked it!
  13. 13 Jan '10 18:22 / 6 edits
    Originally posted by philidor position
    I found the example anyway:
    [fen]5rk1/1b3pp1/1q1b1n1p/1p1p4/1PrP4/1Q1BB2P/N4PP1/2R1R2K b - - 0 31[/fen]
    In this position, Kasparov annotates the move 31...Qc6 as "a typical Petrosian exchange sacrifice." (don't be surprised if you can't find the exact words, as my edition isn't in English).

    I thought this was very similar to the 32.Rc6 by Aro b4 0-1 [/pgn]

    aargh, what kind of pgn viewer is this?!


    No I give up. I have to know more about the problems. It's not a forgiving viewer.
  14. 13 Jan '10 18:25
    Originally posted by philidor position
    aargh, what kind of pgn viewer is this?!
    Blame the operator, not the machine
  15. 13 Jan '10 18:27