Ok, I've found a weakness in my opening play that's making my eyes gauge out in fear whenever I see it. Now, you are wondering perhabs, why, I am mentioning a weakness in my play here, well, I wanna learn how to stop it, the more I see it, hopefully the better I get at stoping it. I've seen players on all levels use this little trick, it's in the opening, so the choices of defense are limited and I'm sure there has to be a standardized way to deal with such tactical zaps that I am not aware of. No1Marauder first pointed out this weakness in one of my losses against the Cambridge Springs, a characteristic opening with an early black Qa5.
Now Qa5 is now accepted as a great asset for black in the Center-Counter game, because indeed, there is no way to get at the queen from there, and in that corner she's developed, attacks, and sometimes pins down a peice (ie: what queens are supposed to do, being used as marauding attackers).
Now in the past it was widely accepted that moving a queen out early, let alone in the corner, was a bad thing, but is it? I am playing games against 2000 plus raters who are doing it right now, this is clearly not a newbie thing. A part of me wonders if an early Qa4 for white, Qa5 for black, is effective in all openings like in the center-counter, because I seem to bump into it opening after opening of all sorts, and it gives me a lot of problems.
It seems no mater what ingenious defense I try to think up, it simply doesn't work to some long winded tactic. Usually they put a bishop on b5 (after playing Qa4), and sometimes they use their other bishop to support the a5-e1 diagonal.
This setup is very hard to defend against, I often spend many times thinking of a move without success, it seems only the most accurate defending will give you an EQUAL position, and in order to find it, you will usually have to calculate some sort of combination of 4-8 moves in the opening to save your skin, a rather dastardly feeling/task I may add in a game no more then say, 10 moves in.
The attack itself often is easy to set up for the attacker because 2 of the moves, Qa5, Bb5, can be played immediately from the starting position of those peices, and a move suporting the vital a5-e1 diagonal can also be done in one bishop move, so it only takes 3 moves to get a massive attack going that I seem to get stalwarted. It's really hard to coordinate a defense against 2 bishops and a queen attacking aggressively and unionized from the start in no more then 3 moves, even if they are non centralized in the deep A file corner.
The idea behind these Qa4-a5 moves, is to obviously throw book knowledge aside (ie: play for the center), neglect the center for now, and simply get more peices out, and more powerful peices out, sooner then your opponent and attack at any angle this is possible. As stated, shifting the calvary to the a file and looking at the enemy king center isn't too hard, it can be done in 3 moves.
Has anyone else had similar experience with this unqiue opening setup/principle? Now please, no, "if you think it's so great, play it too" crap, this is chess, not some RTS game.
my experience:
if a lower rated player brings their queen out early ... then i will win even more easily and quickly than i would otherwise expect.
if a higher rated player brings their queen out early .... then i will lose even more quickly than i would otherwise expect.
i think the high raters only bring their queen out when it is the right thing to do .... they use her for maximum damage ... they are extremely sensitive to her being trapped and needing emergency extraction.
Originally posted by flexmoreSo are you saying that one of the keys to becoming an elite player is to know when to go "BAM", and surprise your opponent with a Qa4-a5? To be honest, that seems to be what happens to me (on the losing end against these 2000 plus players), I often get shocked by it, to be honest, I don't know why I'm shocked by it because I see it so much, but playing your whole opening worrying about Qa4-a5 isn't exactly too smart either, you could set up a defense for it, but your opponent could simply not play Qa4-a5 and your toast, it's at the discretion of your opponent, and it's not like you can guard the a4 square very well either as a safeguard.
my experience:
if a lower rated player brings their queen out early ... then i will win even more easily and quickly than i would otherwise expect.
if a higher rated player brings their queen out early .... then i will lose even more quickly than i would otherwise expect.
i think the high raters only bring their queen out when it is the right thing ...[text shortened]... m damage ... they are extremely sensitive to her being trapped and needing emergency extraction.
So either way, you have no choice but to be shocked by the sudden queen attack on a4-a5 whenever it comes and try to organize some sort of defense that involves very deep analysis, happens to me everytime, annoying, but a huge part of the game I suppose.
Game 870966
in this game cludi brings out the queen ... nicely.
you bring yours out too ... and it is all over.
i think the strong players will use their queens all over the board ... not just on the queen-rook4 square.
p.s. do you often take chess advice from lower rated players ... this may be your biggest problem😛
Originally posted by flexmoreCludi did the same thing with my other game thought, and knowing what happened to me in this game, I simply traded off queens as best as I could, although my position is inferior now by doing it, but I suppose that's better then losing ASAP to this kinda stuff. He's a huge fan of these sort of attacks. I honestly don't know what I did wrong that game against him, I played pretty much by the book and saw his threat right away, which is why I put meat along that diagonal, and still, it wasn't enough to defend.
Game 870966
in this game cludi brings out the queen ... nicely.
you bring yours out too ... and it is all over.
i think the strong players will use their queens all over the board ... not just on the queen-rook4 square.
In the game you can't say I didn't sense the danger of it. Qc7 (the first move I considered) probably MIGHT of defended, but my peices were/are still pinned up from all directions imaginable, I doubt with even finding the "right" move, ie: Qc7, that the game would last much longer anyways.
So I must of did a mistake beforehand to allow this to happen in the first place, the question is what? Obviously the opening isn't inferior as black draws 55% of the time amongst GM games. Cludi himself admits he cannot really find my mistake, other then Qb6 of course but my position was well lost before that, although he says he doesn't like my move h6 and found it to be a waste.
Now h6 is normally very Caro-Kann like, conserving that bishop. I have played experimental games before were I haven't played h6 and gained some tempo, and I let him trade his good knight for my bad Caro bishop, suffering from doubled g pawns and an open h file to attack the kingside. The game is actually alright for black, but of course, you cannot then castle kingside as an option, not that you normally have to by law, to castle anywhere with the Caro, but as you saw in my game against cludi, leaving the king in the center or queenside was even more futile, and I have no doubt this would of happened with or without h6.
So again, it seems to be a toss whether h6 should of been played or not, because cludi is probably one of the best attacking players in RHP, I'll take his advice and not play h6 in this variation, but the non h6 variation often leads to doubled edged play where you have to lose your bishop for a knight, double your pawns, and hope to counter/attack the kingside.
Personally I think c5 might of been my mistake. Cludi doesn't think so, because this is the right idea, and of course it normally is book wise, but I'm sure a part of me thinks cludi played Qa5 because I no longer had a c pawn to block off this diagonal.
You're position was adequate, even though I hate the Caro, until move 11. Then you should have played 11 ..... Nb6 chasing the Queen off the diagonal (if 12 Qb5 a6). Now go ahead, do your usual "I couldn't do that because" routine, but it usually a good idea to attack the Queen and develop a piece at the same time.
Originally posted by flexmoreIndeed, the first time I used it I drew a 1770 player (the open h file lines), it was the first Caro I used on RHP too, kinda sweat, but bitter at the end because I drew when I was up a pawn in a king and pawn endgame, blew it.
i don't understand your discomfort with the open h file lines ... i love them!
i also don't normally have to play early cxd4 ...
in this game it allowed cludi's rook to come down the c file ...
perhaps it is that tempo from h6 that means it is necessary?
The line seems very sound and well, great, based on that one and few games I played with it, but for some odd reason, I feel uncomfortable with it. It's a stupid by-product of reading, "doubling your kingside pawns is stupid, blah, blah, wah" I won all 3 games I used the line, but for whatever reason, I'm timid to play it, go figure?
Originally posted by no1marauderYeah, that was probably an alright move, but it's not a developing move, it's a "moving the same peice twice in the opening when I still have peices left unmoved, to stop a threat" kinda move, still better then nothing I suppose. I guess my problem was I was too busy looking for the perfect moves (thinking that's what I need to at least draw this game), ie: developing new peices and counter attacking this threat simultaneously, sometimes it's a good idea not to always look for great moves but practical ones instead I guess.
You're position was adequate, even though I hate the Caro, until move 11. Then you should have played 11 ..... Nb6 chasing the Queen off the diagonal (if 12 Qb5 a6). Now go ahead, do your usual "I couldn't do that because" routine, but it usually a good idea to attack the Queen and develop a piece at the same time.
Originally posted by mateuloseIt forces your opponent to move his queen. Basically after checking that they can't threaten something while moving the queen it's a free move. Simple as that.
Yeah, that was probably an alright move, but it's not a developing move, it's a "moving the same peice twice in the opening when I still have peices left unmoved, to stop a threat" kinda move, still better then nothing I suppose. I guess my problem was I was too busy looking for the perfect moves (thinking that's what I need to at least draw this game ...[text shortened]... metimes it's a good idea not to always look for great moves but practical ones instead I guess.
Originally posted by XanthosNZYour right, it's a free move, but it's a free move that isn't really that good opening position wise and opening wise, I suppose I should of played it though, because white has to waste a move too to get out of it.
It forces your opponent to move his queen. Basically after checking that they can't threaten something while moving the queen it's a free move. Simple as that.
Originally posted by mateuloseWhere else is that knight going? What is it really doing on d7? It doesn't attack anything. It doesn't control any central squares properly. May as well win a move with it. Instead you play Rc1 which happens to be the pin that is your undoing.
Your right, it's a free move, but it's a free move that isn't really that good opening position wise and opening wise, I suppose I should of played it though, because white has to waste a move too to get out of it.
Originally posted by XanthosNZYou have to understand I'm a newbie, when there's an open c file and I know he's going to put a rook to claim it's, it's usually a good reflex to put one there yourself as a challenge. Plus, I never moved that rook so it seemed like a no-brainer to put it there.
Where else is that knight going? What is it really doing on d7? It doesn't attack anything. It doesn't control any central squares properly. May as well win a move with it. Instead you play Rc1 which happens to be the pin that is your undoing.
Originally posted by XanthosNZof course i agree that Nb6 was better than the Rc8, but only because of this exact setup.
Where else is that knight going? What is it really doing on d7? It doesn't attack anything. It doesn't control any central squares properly. May as well win a move with it. Instead you play Rc1 which happens to be the pin that is your undoing.
in most carokanns i would feel very uncomfortable with it because:
those knights hitting white's centre pawns often develop something ... with a queen on b6 and whites king down the end of that diagonal, things can happen (especially if cxd4 has not yet been played).
strangely enough, f6 is often played by black and a d7 knight is handy there.
when white plays b3 the knight on b6 looks really stupid ... it cannot move, it blocks its b pawn, and queen and just feels silly ... it will probably just go back to d7.
Originally posted by flexmoreI agree with that, most ppl do not realize that the knight on d7 is the best spot for the Caro Kann, as this thread indicates. A lot of novices seem to think puting knights on your second rank is terrible no matter what the costs. A lot of veterans, somehow, seem to think the same way, and somehow, get a high rating despite this simple thinking. (Maybe due to superior tactical ability rather then positional sense) A knight is many times better played on d7 or e7, rather then the regular c6 or f6.
of course i agree that Nb6 was better than the Rc8, but only because of this exact setup.
in most carokanns i would feel very uncomfortable with it because:
those knights hitting white's centre pawns often develop something ... with a queen on b6 and whites king down the end of that diagonal, things can happen (especially if cxd4 has not yet been playe ...[text shortened]... e, it blocks its b pawn, and queen and just feels silly ... it will probably just go back to d7.