Say player x likes the KID. Does he or she need any other opening systems. It seems to me that one can transpose into that out of any opening move that white plays. Examples:
e4 d6 d4 Nf6 Nc3 g6 etc. The KID, but black has transposed favorably by not allowing white to play c4 before moving the queen's knight.
c4 Nf6 d4 g6 etc.
Nf3 Nf6 d4 g6 c4 Bg7 etc.
Why is the KID defence only commonly considered a system against d4 and c4?
Originally posted by ark13I cant agree with you that not allowing c4 it possitive for black. I think in the kings indian black has better chances then in the pric because white has almost wasted a tempo with c4 but he had to play it to gain space because after e4- nf6 - nc3 black can play d5.
Say player x likes the KID. Does he or she need any other opening systems. It seems to me that one can transpose into that out of any opening move that white plays. Examples:
e4 d6 d4 Nf6 Nc3 g6 etc. The KID, but black has transposed favorably by not allowing white to play c4 before moving the queen's knight.
c4 Nf6 d4 g6 etc.
Nf3 Nf6 d4 g6 c4 Bg7 etc.
Why is the KID defence only commonly considered a system against d4 and c4?
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboardBut without c4 black can easily destroy white's center.
I cant agree with you that not allowing c4 it possitive for black. I think in the kings indian black has better chances then in the pric because white has almost wasted a tempo with c4 but he had to play it to gain space because after e4- nf6 - nc3 black can play d5.
And I don't see why c4 is a wasted tempo. If white wanted to play d5, he would've done it on the first move. Clearly he doesn't, so white has no need to secure the square.
I play the KID every chance I get. However this isn't everytime. Often white won't play d4 when I try to transpose an English into the KID. d3 is played in some cases instead.
Good luck getting someone who plays e4 first move to follow along while you convert it.
I like the KID setup anyway (d6, g6, Bg7, Nf6 and 0-0) but it isn't a true KID if white doesn't play ball.
Note: Against e4 I play the Dragon which also has the same setup by black but is a vastly different opening.
Originally posted by ark13Explain to me how Black "easily destroys White's center" after 1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 f4 - the Austrian Attack against the Pirc?
But without c4 black can easily destroy white's center.
And I don't see why c4 is a wasted tempo. If white wanted to play d5, he would've done it on the first move. Clearly he doesn't, so white has no need to secure the square.
Originally posted by no1marauderHow are those snows of yesteryear treatin' ya? Don't seem much different from the snows of today though. Guess after a while it all starts to blend.
Explain to me how Black "easily destroys White's center" after 1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 f4 - the Austrian Attack against the Pirc?
Originally posted by GalaxyShieldDon't waste people's times; if you have something to say about the Chess issue being discussed here, go ahead. Otherwise save the other rot for the General forum.
How are those snows of yesteryear treatin' ya? Don't seem much different from the snows of today though. Guess after a while it all starts to blend.
Originally posted by no1marauderRight, it's harder if white plays f4. However, without the second pawn to defend the d pawn, if ... e5 d5 c6, white has trouble keeping the big center.
Explain to me how Black "easily destroys White's center" after 1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 f4 - the Austrian Attack against the Pirc?
Originally posted by ark13If Black plays an immediate 4 ..... e5, he loses a pawn. If he plays 4 ..... Bg7, White can play simply Nf3 and Black isn't going to get an opportunity to play e5 at all. White is going to develop his King side Bishop and then either castle or play the pawn lever e5 immediately. Either way, White has a strong center for the forseeable future far more so then in lines where c4 is played.
Right, it's harder if white plays f4. However, without the second pawn to defend the d pawn, if ... e5 d5 c6, white has trouble keeping the big center.
Originally posted by no1marauderI meant e5 when white hasn't played f4, and after black has played has played Bg7 or Nbd7. ie. 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be2 0-0 5. 0-0 e5 6. d5 c6 and the center is hard to defend.
If Black plays an immediate 4 ..... e5, he loses a pawn. If he plays 4 ..... Bg7, White can play simply Nf3 and Black isn't going to get an opportunity to play e5 at all. White is going to develop his King side Bishop and then either castle or play the pawn lever e5 immediately. Either way, White has a strong center for the forseeable future far more so then in lines where c4 is played.
Originally posted by ark13Against the austrian f4, black can't play ..e5 before white can and will if allowed. So black plays ...c5 to prevent e5. White can then allow the pawn exchange or push d5 with a benoni look and queenside play for black. ..e6 is also possible against the center.
Right, it's harder if white plays f4. However, without the second pawn to defend the d pawn, if ... e5 d5 c6, white has trouble keeping the big center.
When white plays without an early f4, he usually won't push d5. Better to maintain the tension as long as possible and develop to persuade black to eventually take ..exd4.
To ark: If White doesn't play the Austrian and is content to play the Classical system with 4 Nf3 Bg7 5 O-O he's not really trying to maintain a big center. This line is rather tame for White who relies on quick piece development rather than center occupation.
To regicidal: Black can play 5 .... c5, but after 6 Bb5+, White will quickly follow with e5 and Black is under pressure and must respond accurately. MCO says 6 Bb5+ Nd7 loses for Black i.e. 7 e5 Ng4 8 e6 fxe6 9 Ng5 winning a piece (or more). 6 ... Bd7 is still tricky after 7 e5 Ng4 and either e6 or Bxd7+.
I play the Pirc alot and don't completely agree with Ark. It's a completely different system with different ideas. If Black easily destroyed White's center everyone would play it! I don't think the Austrian Attack is that great against the Pirc. You play Bg7 then c5, and if you know the theory, White has nothing. I think the hardest systems to play against are the Classical and the Be3 - Qd2 ideas. In the classical it's hard for black to do much of anything. Take the 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Be2 0-0 6. 0-0 Bg4 7. h3!? when Black gives up the two bishops with 7..Bxf3 8. Bxf3 Nc6, where 9. Be3 e5 10. dxe5 dxe5 might occur. It may not seem too dangerous for Black, but trying winning this! It's nearly impossible! White has the two bishops, and it's hard for Black to find constructive ways to improve his position. Of course White's edge is pretty small but it's there, and it's hard for Black to play for a win. And in the Be3 - Qd2 systems, Black can't really play obvious "Pirc" moves. He actually doesn't play ..Bg7 in the best lines, opting instead for ..c6 and ..b5. Anyway, If Black wanted to play a KID setup vs. everything, he could, he would just have to learn the Pirc Theory. Personally, wouldn't you get sick of putting a Bishop on g7 all the time? 🙂
Originally posted by !~TONY~!Sorry, I don't agree that White has "nothing" in the Austrian Attack after a Black c5 and not to name drop, but neither did Fischer who used the Austrian to great effect. As mentioned above, 6 Bb5+ gives Black a chance to immediately err and the line has numerous pitfalls for Black. Knowing the theory behind an opening is fine, but when you're playing a line OTB that requires memorization of numerous moves to avoid serious disadvantage or outright disaster, then I'd say your opponent has "something". The c5 lines against the Austrian are skating on thin ice and most of the other lines lead to steady, persistent pressure and good attacking chances for White.
I play the Pirc alot and don't completely agree with Ark. It's a completely different system with different ideas. If Black easily destroyed White's center everyone would play it! I don't think the Austrian Attack is that great against the Pirc. You play Bg7 then c5, and if you know the theory, White has nothing. I think the hardest systems to play agai ...[text shortened]... n the Pirc Theory. Personally, wouldn't you get sick of putting a Bishop on g7 all the time? 🙂