Problem line in Reti/English

Hola,

After 1.c4 e5 2.g3 d6 3.Bg2 f5
or 1. Nf3 d6 2. c4 e5 3. Nc3 f5
or 1. Nf3 f5 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 e5

I find it just a bit uncomfortable for white, I realise this lines are 'harmless' and with correct play white is fine but it feel white does have to be very careful, and in an OTB one off game they seem to be quite effective as a brutal all out assault, indeed I was utterly crushed recently in the second line as white. Anyway there doesn't seem much white can do about an early f5.. any thoughts..

Originally posted by plopzilla
Hola,

After 1.c4 e5 2.g3 d6 3.Bg2 f5
or 1. Nf3 d6 2. c4 e5 3. Nc3 f5
or 1. Nf3 f5 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 e5

I find it just a bit uncomfortable for white, I realise this lines are 'harmless' and with correct play white is fine but it feel white does have to be very careful, and in an OTB one off game they seem to be quite effective as a brutal all ou ...[text shortened]... nd line as white. Anyway there doesn't seem much white can do about an early f5.. any thoughts..

Focus on the weaknesses that have been created. e6 is particularly weak, I have seen knight maneuverers from f3-g5-e6 in a few games. Even if you don't play it, the threat is often enough to win concessions. Also, the d5 square is worth fighting for. If black castles kingside then he will be weak along the a2-g8 diagonal. Consider utilising the Queen along this diagonal, she can often exert an unpleasant presence along the a2-g8 diagonal (from c3 for example). Try to Keep the Bishop on g2 open if you can, there is always potential for it to arrive on d5 and act in a similarly uncomfortable way as a Queen on c3.

EDIT: Also, it might be an idea to try and induce black to play h6, once this has happened then all the white squares around the king are weak. You will have new holes appear on g6 and h5. The main thing to watch out for is black making a pawn break in the centre. If you are playing 1.c4, then you shouldn't sweat having to attack along the flanks, that is the whole point of that system. Good luck. 🙂

Marinkatomb,
Does this, 1. Nf3 f5 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 e5 , start a Dutch Defense for Black?

http://www.eudesign.com/chessops/redu-02a.htm tells:

"White chose a non-committal king's knight, to deter 1..P-K4 but otherwise allow Black the vacant centre (in order for White to have an early target to attack).
Black rejects the centre invitation and advances his King's Bishop's Pawn to deter a potential 2.P-K4, adopting an alternative Dutch Defence strategy that tends not to succeed."

But, eudesign doesn't have a continuation with 2. c4 against the Black side after 1. Nf3 f5.

Originally posted by KingOnPoint
Marinkatomb,
Does this, 1. Nf3 f5 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 e5 , start a Dutch Defense for Black?

http://www.eudesign.com/chessops/redu-02a.htm tells:

"White chose a non-committal king's knight, to deter 1..P-K4 but otherwise allow Black the vacant centre (in order for White to have an early target to attack).
Black rejects the centre invitation and advan ...[text shortened]...

But, eudesign doesn't have a continuation with 2. c4 against the Black side after 1. Nf3 f5.

I'm not sure how to read this post, and going to the website did not help- it's the "tends not to succeed" part that I do not know whether it applies to white or black.

A quick consult with my database shows that white scores less than 50% with any move other than 4. g3.

Of course, numbers like that at move 4 should be taken with more than just a grain of salt, but black is going to have a very playable game.

Originally posted by KingOnPoint
Marinkatomb,
Does this, 1. Nf3 f5 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 e5 , start a Dutch Defense for Black?

http://www.eudesign.com/chessops/redu-02a.htm tells:

"White chose a non-committal king's knight, to deter 1..P-K4 but otherwise allow Black the vacant centre (in order for White to have an early target to attack).
Black rejects the centre invitation and advan ...[text shortened]...

But, eudesign doesn't have a continuation with 2. c4 against the Black side after 1. Nf3 f5.

I would say that someone has taken that quote from a book of some sort, which is probably why the rest is missing. Tbh, i'm not an expert on the Dutch, I was just offering some of the things that I pay attention to when playing against it. I don't really play with a set opening repertoire, so I can't tell you exactly what the theory is, but I will say that there is nothing to especially fear in this opening. Ok, you can't put a pawn on e4, big deal. Black has seriously weakened the light squares on the kingside without white having to invest a single move to encourage him. The black f-pawn is troublesome at the beginning of the game, it makes it a little awkward for white to manoeuvre at the start of the game, but with all things being equal, black is the only one with any weaknesses. Don't worry too much about what it's called, just develop your pieces to utilise the free holes black has voluntarily introduced into his own position..

EDIT: What Paul says is correct, statistically white score better with the bishop on g2. This is the way I play against the dutch. e.g...

Nf3 ..f5 g3 ..Nf6 Bg2 ..e6 d4 (or c4, but i like to delay this move) ..Be7 0-0 etc..

Putting the bishop on g2 can have a restraining effect on blacks white bishop as you have an x-ray attack on b7. Also if black goes into a stonewall (with pawns on c6-d5-e6-f5) then whites white bishop is covering e4 from a safe square. But this is all getting a bit vague, I hope all of this makes sense, I feel i may be getting a bit far from the original line...