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  1. Standard member HomerJSimpson
    Renouned Grob Killer
    28 Dec '07 14:57 / 1 edit
    Endgames for class A players 1800-1999



    Is 1...dxc5 a good move?
  2. 28 Dec '07 15:02
    No, its better to push down for promotion, then the middle pawns dont matter.
  3. Standard member HomerJSimpson
    Renouned Grob Killer
    28 Dec '07 15:23
    But why? Once black queens the pawn will be at the 7th rank whether he captures it or not, your missing the conceptual detail of the problem.
  4. 28 Dec '07 15:40
    heh, yea thats true, ok...


    DxC5, dxC5 again, H7, F3, H8 (queen) F2, QD4 pinning pawn to the king, would end in a draw i think.

    after looking at other options, I dont see a winning move for black, blacks best chance would be to play D5 to keep his other pawn on the board, then when both players have queens, try to exchange them down and dash the second pawn to promotion.
    Even looking at it this way and playing through different moves, i could not find a way to force a queen exchange leaving the other black pawn to promote.... but then i am not 18-1900
  5. Standard member HomerJSimpson
    Renouned Grob Killer
    28 Dec '07 15:45
    that is not a draw, go back and look at it somemore.
  6. 28 Dec '07 15:48
    if you take white takes and it is for sure draw, with Q versus Bishop pawns on 7th ready to promote(and B pawn and R pawn on 7th vs Q are draws)...so for sure trading will get you ONLY draw...
    without trading you have the draw at LEAST ANYWAY, so you have chances to get MORE out this position as you will not stealmate white...so in less than 20 seconds I would move pawn forward to queen...as I can analyze later if my line wins as I have the draw anyway
    Is my answer correct ?
  7. Donation !~TONY~!
    1...c5!
    28 Dec '07 17:59
    dxc5 is a terrible blunder! Of course, ..a2 wins pretty easily. the problem with dxc5 is that White's lone pawn is a bishop pawn, and it gets to the 7th, which is a known draw, along with rook pawns. Both work because of cheap stalemate tricks.
  8. Standard member HomerJSimpson
    Renouned Grob Killer
    28 Dec '07 18:14 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by !~TONY~!
    dxc5 is a terrible blunder! Of course, ..a2 wins pretty easily. the problem with dxc5 is that White's lone pawn is a bishop pawn, and it gets to the 7th, which is a known draw, along with rook pawns. Both work because of cheap stalemate tricks.
    thats 100% right see after a few moves you get something like this:



    And black cant force the white king to go infront of the pawn so he can move the king up.
  9. Standard member bosintang
    perpetualEditMonkey
    28 Dec '07 19:53 / 3 edits
    It's easy to see how dxc5 is losing, it's harder to see how a2 is winning.



    Black to move

    The best I can calculate is a KQ - KQP endgame with the friendly king separated from the pawn, certainly not trivial to win.
  10. 28 Dec '07 22:06
    Originally posted by bosintang
    It's easy to see how dxc5 is losing, it's harder to see how a2 is winning.

    [fen]1K6/8/2Pp4/8/3P4/8/p7/7k b - - 0 1[/fen]

    [b]Black to move


    The best I can calculate is a KQ - KQP endgame with the friendly king separated from the pawn, certainly not trivial to win.[/b]
    no way, it is much easier...Q will get close to the pawn(at b6) with checks...and Q can take the pawn if K a8(not anymore stealmate becauseof the existing white pawn) so K can not retreat to a8...
    and if K retreats to c8 black can take the last white pawn and after that to sack the Q for c pawn and queen his last pawn
    you got it?
  11. Standard member bosintang
    perpetualEditMonkey
    28 Dec '07 22:14
    Originally posted by vipiu
    no way, it is much easier...Q will get close to the pawn(at b6) with checks...and Q can take the pawn if K a8(not anymore stealmate becauseof the existing white pawn) so K can not retreat to a8...
    and if K retreats to c8 black can take the last white pawn and after that to sack the Q for c pawn and queen his last pawn
    you got it?
    This makes sense *if* black can take the non-promoting pawn with a check. I don't see how he can do this though.
  12. 28 Dec '07 22:18
    Originally posted by bosintang
    This makes sense *if* black can take the non-promoting pawn with a check. I don't see how he can do this though.
    take the remaining pawn ONLY when white K is on c8...so Q take,white K comes out(at d7 for example-or any other square) Q on c file, c8Q and QxQ
  13. Standard member bosintang
    perpetualEditMonkey
    28 Dec '07 22:21 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by bosintang
    This makes sense *if* black can take the non-promoting pawn with a check. I don't see how he can do this though.
    Ok got it now! Thanks

    From original position:

    1...a2 2. c6 a1=Q 3. c7 Qb2! is the win.
  14. 28 Dec '07 22:25 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by bosintang
    Ok got it now! Thanks

    1...a1=Q 2. b7 Qb2! is the winning move.
    why not? same way as you play in the book endgame against pawn on 7th...step by step with check

    edit: posted too late, you got it 1st
  15. Standard member bosintang
    perpetualEditMonkey
    28 Dec '07 22:28
    Originally posted by vipiu
    why not? same way as you play in the book endgame against pawn on 7th...step by step with check

    edit: posted too late, you got it 1st
    I screwed up the notation there.. I was agreeing with you, you were right.

    You only need one check with Qb2. If the King goes a8, it's separate from the pawn and trivial to win the promoting pawn. If the King goes c8, you can take the non-promoting pawn (and sack your Queen later for the promoting white pawn, and march your black pawn down the board to pawn.)