Consider the following line:
1.d4,d5 2.c4,e6 3.Nc3,Nf6 4.Bg5,Be7 5.Nf3,0-0 6.e3,Nbd7 7.Bd3,dxc4 8.Bxc4,c5
I've been told and have read this gains a tempo because White has to move the bishop again.I don't quite follow this.Look at the position after move 7,White has developed 4 pieces(2 bishops + 2 knights) while Black has 3 pieces out (2 knights + 1 bishop) and castled (which also counts as development).After move 8 the development score is still 4-4 with the difference that White's bishop is now on c4 instead of d3 and 2 pawns are exchanged.Where is the gain of tempo?
It seems to me it can only be a gain if:
a.White's bishop doesn't belong on c4 so he'll need to move it yet again to put it on the correct square.
b.it's an advantage for White to play cxd5 so Black's forced to play dxc4 anyway in which case it's best to do it after White went Bd3.But if this is so then why didn't White play cxd5 earlier?
c.Black gains something I'm missing
I've asked this to several people(granted they were not very strong players) and none of them got any further than "He moved his bishop twice." and "The books say it's an advantage".To my retort "I don't understand the books Black moved his pawn twice" I only get confused looks and silence 😞
Maybe someone here can enlighten me 🙂
A) White's bishop doesn't belong on c4 so he'll need to move it yet again to put it on the correct square.
I think that this proposed answer is the correct one to your question. It could also be that black gains a tempo because he will chase the bishop in the future developing a piece or moving the piece to a better square.
Originally posted by UriesInstead of Bd3 consider another move for White.A) White's bishop doesn't belong on c4 so he'll need to move it yet again to put it on the correct square.
I think that this proposed answer is the correct one to your question. It could also be that black gains a tempo because he will chase the bishop in the future developing a piece or moving the piece to a better square.
Say Rc1 or Qc2. Both are useful for White - getting developed and adding pressure to the c-file. If Black responds with ... dxc4 then White will play Bxc4 and in the position that ends your analysis White has an extra move (the rook or queen). Hence he has 'gained a tempo'.
White has lost a tempo in the line with Bd3 not compared with Black on the actual board but compared with what he *might* have had.
J
Originally posted by JonathanB of LondonYes,but when White doesn't play 7.Bd3 Black will not/should not respond 7....,dxc4 but rather 7....,c6 turning it into a whole different line but I still see no tempogain.
Instead of Bd3 consider another move for White.
Say Rc1 or Qc2. Both are useful for White - getting developed and adding pressure to the c-file. If Black responds with ... dxc4 then White will play Bxc4 and in the position that ends your analysis White has an extra move (the rook or queen). Hence he has 'gained a tempo'.
White has lost a ...[text shortened]... not compared with Black on the actual board but compared with what he *might* have had.
J
Originally posted by RomanticusThat's the point though! You gain a tempo because White played this move. The response 7...dxc4 makes sense because you've forced White to lose a move.
Yes,but when White doesn't play 7.Bd3 Black will not/should not respond 7....,dxc4 but rather 7....,c6 turning it into a whole different line but I still see no tempogain.
Originally posted by RomanticusI don't think White is trying to gain a tempo by not playing 7.Bd3. He's trying to not lose a tempo by not playing 7.Bd3. (Am I making any sense? I'm not sure. 😵 )
Yes,but when White doesn't play 7.Bd3 Black will not/should not respond 7....,dxc4 but rather 7....,c6 turning it into a whole different line but I still see no tempogain.
Originally posted by !~TONY~!So everybody says but I don't see it.After 7.Bd3 development stands 4-4,after 8.Bxc4 development score is 4-4.Where did White lose a tempo?
That's the point though! You gain a tempo because White played this move. The response 7...dxc4 makes sense because you've forced White to lose a move.
Yes,madrook,you make sense.When White doesn't play 7.Bd3 but,for instance,7.Qc2 he doesn't lose a tempo.But that's a different line.My problem is I'm unsure I understand how he loses a tempo if he does play 7.Bd3.
The whole thing is a battle of tempo. White wants to get the bishop to c4 in one move. That is the tempo. After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nbd7 5.e3 Be7 6.Nf3 0-0, white wants to play Bc4 in one move. Black wants white to play Bd3 first so that he can respond with b5 (sometime). That in turn, gives black an extra tempo (while the bishop moves) to start his queenside play. After 7.Bd3 dxc4, 8.Bxc4 b5 is one idea. Another 8th move for black is Capablanca's 8. ... Nd5. The idea behind that move is the side with less space should trade pieces.
White plays 7.Qc2 thinking that black MUST play dxc4 eventually. Then, the bishop will get to c4 in one move. Unfortunately, 7.Qc2 allows 7. .... c5. The queen move has decreased control of d4 (and d5).
7.Rc1 has a similar tempo saving idea. Black usally plays 7. ... c6 to close the c file. It also prepares the possibility of b5 and puts more control on d5. White's usual 8th move after 7. .... c6 is 8.Bd3 dxc4. White ran out of useful waiting moves and had to play the move he has been trying to save. After 9.Bxc4 Nd5 is good again, leading to more simplification.
Summary:
The whole tempo battle is whether white can play Bxc4 in one bishop move. Black has to play dxc4 eventually (or get smothered). White tries not to run out of waiting moves before dxc4 occurs.
This is the note from JonathonB's post that answers the question for me:
White has lost a tempo in the line with Bd3 not compared with Black on the actual board but compared with what he *might* have had.
The fact that you are 4:4 isn't the point. It would have been 5:4 favoring white had you not done the recapture. Which is why some lines delay the development of the bishop hoping to develop and take the pawn in one move.
I've some useful notes on this line in my book by Chris Ward. It's not in front of me now but the top of my head I think black maybe playing the Cambridge springs line which is known to be tricky for white...and there are ways to avoid it....either that or I' mixing it up with something similar...will post later.
I learned the importance of tempo early on. One of the best chess programs (and one that hardly ever gets recommended) was Power Chess. I have two copies, but it only works on my old Windows 95 computer. The Power Chess Queen verbally annotates (with great detail) about 6 or 7 classical games. Among them are Morphy's Opera Game, The Evergreen Game, and a few other treasures, including this one:
This isn't quite the same without the annotations though. 🙁
This one is described as being played in the trenches of World War One.
Originally posted by RomanticusYou are quite right - Black should probably avoid ... dxc4 after Rc1 or Qc2.
Yes,but when White doesn't play 7.Bd3 Black will not/should not respond 7....,dxc4 but rather 7....,c6 turning it into a whole different line but I still see no tempogain.
This is why the whole thing is called the fight for tempo. Both sides are trying to play useful moves while waiting for the other to do something that means the opponent is the one to lose a tempo.
... c6, incidentally, may also work here. Typically in the QGD Black wants to play ...c5 so playing the pawn to c6 and then later to c5 may - White hopes anyway - lose a tempo.
I think you're whole problem here is that you're trying to look at the board and see where the tempo is lost. Again, as Mahout as grasped, the key thing here is to compare what *might* have been played.
Originally posted by RomanticusThis is where you're hitting trouble I think.
When White doesn't play 7.Bd3 but,for instance,7.Qc2 he doesn't lose a tempo.But that's a different line.My problem is I'm unsure I understand how he loses a tempo if he does play 7.Bd3.
White loses a tempo by playing Bd3 BECAUSE he has not played Qc2. Qc2 is, if you like, what might have been played but it isn't on the board after Bd3 and therefore the tempo has been lost.
Originally posted by MahoutSo you say he doesn't lose a tempo unless Black allows it?Because apparently if Black doesn't want to then White can never get the pawn in 1 go.
This is the note from JonathonB's post that answers the question for me:
[b]White has lost a tempo in the line with Bd3 not compared with Black on the actual board but compared with what he *might* have had.
The fact that you are 4:4 isn't the point. It would have been 5:4 favoring white had you not done the recapture. Which is why some lines dela ...[text shortened]... ays to avoid it....either that or I' mixing it up with something similar...will post later.[/b]
I completely fail to see how White could be 5-4 if Black hadn't recaptured.Black hasn't recaptured anything!
I do understand White tries different lines,I'm not questioning wether 7.Bd3 is the best line or not.
Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromficsNo!!!You do not really lose a tempo if I lose one too.While White plays Bd3-Bc4 Black doesn't develop anything,so it's not as simple as you put it.
The tempo is to get the bishop to c4 in one move instead of two. That is all !!!
Brain still progressing Jonathan's last posts.Might take a while 🙂