Question about Rook sacs in one of my games

In the following game Game 5243438 I sacaraficed my rooks on move 17 and 20. I was just wondering if I was missing anything, because often times what happens is I'll make sacs and then later realize that they were not well thought out.

Originally posted by amolv06
In the following game Game 5243438 I sacaraficed my rooks on move 17 and 20. I was just wondering if I was missing anything, because often times what happens is I'll make sacs and then later realize that they were not well thought out.

They look very sound to me, it was an excellent game.

I was wondering if you could have carried out your plan of Qe4-g4-h5 starting on move 16, instead of castling?

The idea of throwing Rooks at the Bishop and the Knight before
they can get across to the Kingside and defend is excellent.
The 2nd Rook sac does it - no escape after that one.

Black's Qe8 was poor. I'd have played Rxf3 and Nxe5 and gone
down fighting. Though I fear White is cruising to a win.

Good game.

Thanks. I contemplated doing that, however due to having imperfect foresight I figured it was safer to bring the second rook out. Sometimes I don't play what may be the better move because I'm somewhat unconfident in my decision and end up playing the "safer" move instead. Since you've somewhat confirmed that idea, though, I think 16 Qe4 was probably better in retrospect.

Originally posted by amolv06
[bI don't play what may be the better move because I'm somewhat unconfident in my decision and end up playing the "safer" move instead. .[/b]

No bad thing in playing the 'safer' move. if you have technical
won game then why complicate things.

But sometimes the position will demand you play the sharp unclear move.
Play it.

The more you find and play sacs like that 2nd Rook sac the more confidence
you will get.

Just looked at Queen moves Fat Lady suggests with this Winboard
that Fat Lady sent me - looks like he's right. (Damn).
Black is going to have shed buckets of material to stop the mate.

Trust him to find a boring variation. 😛

Brilliant! 😵

Originally posted by amolv06
Thanks. I contemplated doing that, however due to having imperfect foresight I figured it was safer to bring the second rook out. Sometimes I don't play what may be the better move because I'm somewhat unconfident in my decision and end up playing the "safer" move instead. Since you've somewhat confirmed that idea, though, I think 16 Qe4 was probably better in retrospect.

Although the sacrifices were perfectly sound in this game as they led to mate, the trouble I always run into when I sacrifice material is that my opponent has the option of sacrificing back!

I find this makes it difficult to calculate accurately because candidate moves for your opponent that you rejected because they lose material suddenly become viable if he is already material up.

Can black hold after giving some material back with 21. ... Rf5? If 22. Bxf5 exf5 the attack ends, and 22. Qh3+ Bh4 23. Nxh4 (not Qxh4, where the attack ends again) Kg1 and it looks like the king has an escape square. Black's still hurting in that line, and the endgame doesn't look good, but it at least avoids the mating net...

Originally posted by paultopia
Can black hold after giving some material back with 21. ... Rf5? If 22. Bxf5 exf5 the attack ends, and 22. Qh3+ Bh4 23. Nxh4 (not Qxh4, where the attack ends again) Kg1 and it looks like the king has an escape square. Black's still hurting in that line, and the endgame doesn't look good, but it at least avoids the mating net...

Still leads to mate.Long variation but not overly difficult to find because,after 23...,Kg8,all moves are forced:
21...,Rf5 22.Qh3+,Bh4 23.Nxh4,Kg8? 24.Nxf5,exf5 25.Qh7+,Kf8 26.Qh8+,Ke7 27.Qxg7+,Ke6 28.Qf7+,Kxe5 29.Qxf5,Kd6 30.Ne4+,Kc6 31.Qc5,Kd7 32.Qd5+,Kc8 33.Bf5+,Qd7 34.Qxd7+,Kb8 35.Qd8#

23....Rh5 might stop the mate(further clogs up the h-file) but costs so much material there's no point in prolonging the struggle any further.

If 21 ...Rf5 why not 22 Ng5? If 22 ... Rxg5 then 23. Qh4+ leads to mate. If 22 ... Bxg5 then 23 Qh5+ leads to mate. Unless I'm missing something...

Originally posted by greenpawn34
But sometimes the position will demand you play the sharp unclear move.
Play it. [/b]

I try to. However, it is more intimidating to do when playing someone better than you. I've played quite a bit against computers and every time I've thought I've found some brilliant sac I've come out to be wrong, so I've kind of been trained to not play the sac. I guess sometimes playing the computer is bad for you psychologically. I used to play 3 minute games last year outside the dorm rooms (sometimes all night which was incredibly fun) and it was harder locating sacs imo.

Originally posted by amolv06
If 21 ...Rf5 why not 22 Ng5? If 22 ... Rxg5 then 23. Qh4+ leads to mate. If 22 ... Bxg5 then 23 Qh5+ leads to mate. Unless I'm missing something...

23.Qh5+,Bh6 black's winning now

Damn. Knew I had to be missing something! Now I'm embarrassed...getting too carried away with those sacs.

Originally posted by amolv06
Damn. Knew I had to be missing something! Now I'm embarrassed...getting too carried away with those sacs.

Hey,at first I thought it was still winning,then I realised we had also sacrificed the knight.Quite a shock! LOL

Originally posted by amolv06
If 21 ...Rf5 why not 22 Ng5? If 22 ... Rxg5 then 23. Qh4+ leads to mate. If 22 ... Bxg5 then 23 Qh5+ leads to mate. Unless I'm missing something...

22...Bxg5 23.Qh5+ Bh6

Edit: beaten to it...