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  1. 07 Feb '13 23:22
    Would appreciate suggestions for books to read or grandmasters to study, whose games illustrate techniques for drawing with a rook and king versus a queen and king in the endgame.
  2. Standard member SwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    08 Feb '13 00:39
    Originally posted by YourWorstKnightmare
    Would appreciate suggestions for books to read or grandmasters to study, whose games illustrate techniques for drawing with a rook and king versus a queen and king in the endgame.
    You usually can't draw this one.
  3. 08 Feb '13 00:44
    I would say the only hope you have of drawing with the rook is if your opponent doesn't understand the winning technique, or can't find it OTB. Unless the initial position allows an obvious stalemate position, or a pin/skewer exchanging the R/Q.
  4. 08 Feb '13 01:20
    For instance, there is the classic Rook versus Queen fortress draw, a possibility even Kramnik for instance has missed, as with his 35th move in Kramnik-Deep Fritz (Bahrain [6] 2002).
  5. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    08 Feb '13 03:15 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by YourWorstKnightmare
    For instance, there is the classic Rook versus Queen fortress draw, a possibility even Kramnik for instance has missed, as with his 35th move in Kramnik-Deep Fritz (Bahrain [6] 2002).
    It is certainly not an easy win when both players know the winning and drawing methods. But it is supposed to be a forced win. I saw it in my first chess book, "Chess Self-Teacher" by Al Horowitz. I think it is a good beginner book.

    P.S. I never had to do it in an actual game. The methods are not fresh on my mind now, so I would probably fail in an actual OTB game now. But on RHP I should be able to do it, because I can just refresh my memory if it comes up.
  6. 08 Feb '13 03:47
    Citing just 5 examples, from Botvinnik, Dorfman, and V. Khenkin, across fewer than 4 pages, Dvoretsky ( "Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual" ) does illustrate the side with the rook
    successfully securing a draw against the Queen -- but his is a pretty skimpy coverage.

    It's the sort of duel that Averbakh or Smyslov or Benko may have explored.
  7. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    08 Feb '13 07:14
    Originally posted by YourWorstKnightmare
    Citing just 5 examples, from Botvinnik, Dorfman, and V. Khenkin, across fewer than 4 pages, Dvoretsky ( "Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual" ) does illustrate the side with the rook
    successfully securing a draw against the Queen -- but his is a pretty skimpy coverage.

    It's the sort of duel that Averbakh or Smyslov or Benko may have explored.


    White to play and draw in one.

    If you download table bases (a kind of chess ending database), which you can do from Bob Hyatt's website (search for Crafty on google, if you do not have a chess program then SCID is free and can cope with 5 piece table bases) then you can find all the drawn positions, and use the tool to learn the ending. It's unlikely to come up in a useful way though.

    Alternatively John Nunn wrote a series of books on endgames based around data mining of End Game Tablebases - one of those may contain the position.

    PS - Don't do this for in progress games on this site as using table bases in a game is against the rules.
  8. 08 Feb '13 07:40
    Pal Benko spoiled me with his endgames column where he would show a position and leave you with a principle.

    So for instance when I sought to draw a bishop and flank-pawns versus rook and flank-pawns endgame, what I learned from Benko was, keep the bishop active on the long diagonal. It works.
  9. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    08 Feb '13 18:04 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    [fen]7R/8/8/8/8/8/2q3k1/K7[/fen]

    White to play and draw in one.

    If you download table bases (a kind of chess ending database), which you can do from Bob Hyatt's website (search for Crafty on google, if you do not have a chess program then SCID is free and can cope with 5 piece table bases) then you can find all the drawn positions, and use the tool his for in progress games on this site as using table bases in a game is against the rules.
    Rh2+ could even win if Black does not take the Rook.
  10. 08 Feb '13 23:58 / 1 edit
    I agree that this is usually won for the side with the queen. I'm not good at assessing the practicality of swindles but here's one...

  11. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    09 Feb '13 03:22 / 6 edits
    Originally posted by Varenka
    I agree that this is usually won for the side with the queen. I'm not good at assessing the practicality of swindles but here's one...

    [pgn]
    [Event "?"]
    [Site "?"]
    [Date "????.??.??"]
    [Round "?"]
    [White "New game"]
    [Black "?"]
    [Result "*"]
    [SetUp "1"]
    [FEN "8/8/8/2rk4/8/3KQ3/8/8 w - - 0 0"]
    [PlyCount "12"]

    1. Qe4+ Kd6 2. Kd4 Rc6 3. Qe5+ Kd7 4. Kd5 Rc7 5. Qe6+ Kd8 6. Kd6 Rc6+ *
    [/pgn]
    In Chess Self-Teacher by Al Horowitz he shows several positions and some moves White must avoid to prevent Black from drawing. In his position the rook is on the right side of the king instead of the left, however the general winning procedure would have the same idea.

    He says, "The Black rook must stay under the guard of its king, otherwise it may be lost through a queen check that attacks both Black pieces simultaneously. The White king must come as close to his opponents as possible to aid the queen in driving him back and near the corner. It could be done just as you show.

  12. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    09 Feb '13 06:18 / 2 edits
    Black could prolong the game as follows:

  13. 09 Feb '13 08:47 / 1 edit
    Years ago I had the chance to play this endgame here on RHP. I think it would be much harder OTB than it looks on here.

    Game 513956
  14. 09 Feb '13 15:22 / 1 edit
    Hi V.

    "I'm not good at assessing the practicality of swindles but here's one..."

    All the endgame books I know warn you of such a possibility.
    It is a very practicle tool to have in your saddlebag.

    Just some RHP examples from a very deep pot.
    We see each position just as the Rook is being sacced for the stalemate.

    infomast - scottcrockart RHP.2006


    saif1980 - kenmc RHP 2006


    fixli (1412) - Lizard King (1465) RHP.2010


    munichmick - kgb97 RHP 2009


    dtwilson - humphreysjim RHP 2010


    And finally an Over The Board example

    L.Mai - Y.Han Canadian Open Ottawa 2007


    Here is my only OTB effort where I had to win with Queen v Rook.

    First as Black I faced an opening variation (by transposition) that I myself play.
    The Delayed Exchange Lopez.
    So in the huff I nick the QNP with my Queen and go into an endgame.
    (don't try this at home.)

    Endgames = dodgy days for greenpawn.
    Look what I do to my Rooks when I gang up on a weak a-pawn.


    I don't think you should do this to Rooks.

    I am winning the ending on the Queenside but as usual screw it up.
    So off to the Kingside where I decided to sac my Rook for three passed pawns.
    Of course that is gloriously mis-timed but my opponent failed to take advantage of it and
    We are left with my Queen v his Rook.

    Looking back I appear to change plans ½ dozen times thoughout the game
    but I was team captain and evey now and then the score card was being added to at my table.
    This was always distracting. I hate being distracted it takes me a while to pick up
    the thread of the game.

    My opponent was in his last 5 minutes when I tossed the last Rook, I as always
    had plenty of time. (I never lost an OTB game on time.) and recorded all the moves
    so one one day. (today) you could play over it and marvel at my genius.

    C. Emms - G. Chandler Bells V Dragons, Edinburgh League 1998

  15. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    09 Feb '13 20:31
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Hi V.

    "I'm not good at assessing the practicality of swindles but here's one..."

    All the endgame books I know warn you of such a possibility.
    It is a very practicle tool to have in your saddlebag.

    Just some RHP examples from a very deep pot.
    We see each position just as the Rook is being sacced for the stalemate.

    infomast - scottcrockart RH ...[text shortened]... 4 97.Kc2 Kd4 98.Rb3 Qa4 99.Kb2 Kc4 100.Rb7 Qc6 101.Rb3 Qg2+ 102.Ka3 Qd2 103.Rb8 Qd6+[/pgn]
    When the rook runs away from the king there is always a way to force a position to fork the King and rook, but he made it just too easy for you.