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Originally posted by YourWorstKnightmareIt is certainly not an easy win when both players know the winning and drawing methods. But it is supposed to be a forced win. I saw it in my first chess book, "Chess Self-Teacher" by Al Horowitz. I think it is a good beginner book.
For instance, there is the classic Rook versus Queen fortress draw, a possibility even Kramnik for instance has missed, as with his 35th move in Kramnik-Deep Fritz (Bahrain [6] 2002).
P.S. I never had to do it in an actual game. The methods are not fresh on my mind now, so I would probably fail in an actual OTB game now. But on RHP I should be able to do it, because I can just refresh my memory if it comes up.
Citing just 5 examples, from Botvinnik, Dorfman, and V. Khenkin, across fewer than 4 pages, Dvoretsky ( "Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual" ) does illustrate the side with the rook
successfully securing a draw against the Queen -- but his is a pretty skimpy coverage.
It's the sort of duel that Averbakh or Smyslov or Benko may have explored.
Originally posted by YourWorstKnightmare
Citing just 5 examples, from Botvinnik, Dorfman, and V. Khenkin, across fewer than 4 pages, Dvoretsky ( "Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual" ) does illustrate the side with the rook
successfully securing a draw against the Queen -- but his is a pretty skimpy coverage.
It's the sort of duel that Averbakh or Smyslov or Benko may have explored.
White to play and draw in one.
If you download table bases (a kind of chess ending database), which you can do from Bob Hyatt's website (search for Crafty on google, if you do not have a chess program then SCID is free and can cope with 5 piece table bases) then you can find all the drawn positions, and use the tool to learn the ending. It's unlikely to come up in a useful way though.
Alternatively John Nunn wrote a series of books on endgames based around data mining of End Game Tablebases - one of those may contain the position.
PS - Don't do this for in progress games on this site as using table bases in a game is against the rules.🙂
Pal Benko spoiled me with his endgames column where he would show a position and leave you with a principle.
So for instance when I sought to draw a bishop and flank-pawns versus rook and flank-pawns endgame, what I learned from Benko was, keep the bishop active on the long diagonal. It works.
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Originally posted by DeepThoughtRh2+ could even win if Black does not take the Rook. 😏
[fen]7R/8/8/8/8/8/2q3k1/K7[/fen]
White to play and draw in one.
If you download table bases (a kind of chess ending database), which you can do from Bob Hyatt's website (search for Crafty on google, if you do not have a chess program then SCID is free and can cope with 5 piece table bases) then you can find all the drawn positions, and use the tool his for in progress games on this site as using table bases in a game is against the rules.🙂
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Originally posted by VarenkaIn Chess Self-Teacher by Al Horowitz he shows several positions and some moves White must avoid to prevent Black from drawing. In his position the rook is on the right side of the king instead of the left, however the general winning procedure would have the same idea.
I agree that this is usually won for the side with the queen. I'm not good at assessing the practicality of swindles but here's one...
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/8/8/2rk4/8/3KQ3/8/8 w - - 0 0"]
[PlyCount "12"]
1. Qe4+ Kd6 2. Kd4 Rc6 3. Qe5+ Kd7 4. Kd5 Rc7 5. Qe6+ Kd8 6. Kd6 Rc6+ *
[/pgn]
He says, "The Black rook must stay under the guard of its king, otherwise it may be lost through a queen check that attacks both Black pieces simultaneously. The White king must come as close to his opponents as possible to aid the queen in driving him back and near the corner. It could be done just as you show.
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Years ago I had the chance to play this endgame here on RHP. I think it would be much harder OTB than it looks on here.
Game 513956
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Hi V.
"I'm not good at assessing the practicality of swindles but here's one..."
All the endgame books I know warn you of such a possibility.
It is a very practicle tool to have in your saddlebag.
Just some RHP examples from a very deep pot.
We see each position just as the Rook is being sacced for the stalemate.
infomast - scottcrockart RHP.2006
saif1980 - kenmc RHP 2006
fixli (1412) - Lizard King (1465) RHP.2010
munichmick - kgb97 RHP 2009
dtwilson - humphreysjim RHP 2010
And finally an Over The Board example
L.Mai - Y.Han Canadian Open Ottawa 2007
Here is my only OTB effort where I had to win with Queen v Rook.
First as Black I faced an opening variation (by transposition) that I myself play.
The Delayed Exchange Lopez.
So in the huff I nick the QNP with my Queen and go into an endgame.
(don't try this at home.)
Endgames = dodgy days for greenpawn.
Look what I do to my Rooks when I gang up on a weak a-pawn.
I don't think you should do this to Rooks.
I am winning the ending on the Queenside but as usual screw it up.
So off to the Kingside where I decided to sac my Rook for three passed pawns.
Of course that is gloriously mis-timed but my opponent failed to take advantage of it and
We are left with my Queen v his Rook.
Looking back I appear to change plans ½ dozen times thoughout the game
but I was team captain and evey now and then the score card was being added to at my table.
This was always distracting. I hate being distracted it takes me a while to pick up
the thread of the game.
My opponent was in his last 5 minutes when I tossed the last Rook, I as always
had plenty of time. (I never lost an OTB game on time.) and recorded all the moves
so one one day. (today) you could play over it and marvel at my genius.
C. Emms - G. Chandler Bells V Dragons, Edinburgh League 1998
Originally posted by greenpawn34When the rook runs away from the king there is always a way to force a position to fork the King and rook, but he made it just too easy for you.
Hi V.
"I'm not good at assessing the practicality of swindles but here's one..."
All the endgame books I know warn you of such a possibility.
It is a very practicle tool to have in your saddlebag.
Just some RHP examples from a very deep pot.
We see each position just as the Rook is being sacced for the stalemate.
infomast - scottcrockart RH ...[text shortened]... 4 97.Kc2 Kd4 98.Rb3 Qa4 99.Kb2 Kc4 100.Rb7 Qc6 101.Rb3 Qg2+ 102.Ka3 Qd2 103.Rb8 Qd6+[/pgn]