19 Oct 07
2 edits
ok guys, I want opinion on this line of the Scandinavian and on the Scandinavian entirely. Not the most popular defence, it doesn't appear to be refutable...
1. e4 d5
2. exd5 Nf6
3. Nc3 c6?!
4. dxc6 Nxc6
5. Bc4
abejnood, on this site, goes to my school and is in chess club with me. about a year ago, I presented this line to him, and 5. Bc4 was his refutation to Black's gambit. I presented him with two options for black: 5. ... Bf5 and 5. ... e6
we argued it over, and couldn't agree.
what do you guys think?
is the gambit sound?
is the scandinavian Defence sound?
can white play for advantage in this or another line?
if so, how?
I think the Scandinavian is a greatly underrated opening. with so many players playing the Latvian Gambit, you'd think there'd at least be some who knew a thing or two about this one...
I played it OTB in a tourney once as white, and it drove me crazy.
I couldn't crack it!
19 Oct 07
Here's your refutation...
White gets a pawn that black can't get back.
Just play the game out and you're up a pawn and probably going to win, or at least be on the winning side of a draw.
Here's the line fritz gives.
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Nc3 c6 4. dxc6 Nxc6 5. Bc4
e5 6. Nf3 Bd6 7. d3 O-O 8. O-O Bg4
White's up a pawn, with balanced tempo.
Looks fine.
19 Oct 07
Originally posted by ih8sensit's not a tactical sacrafice...
Here's your refutation...
White gets a pawn that black can't get back.
Just play the game out and you're up a pawn and probably going to win, or at least be on the winning side of a draw.
Here's the line fritz gives.
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Nc3 c6 4. dxc6 Nxc6 5. Bc4
e5 6. Nf3 Bd6 7. d3 O-O 8. O-O Bg4
White's up a pawn, with balanced tempo.
Looks fine.
In my idea of Bf5, the rook comes to c8, with what appears to be a decent attack...
any way, I don't see how white can take advantage of the pawn...
but on from this line...
let Crafty run for a while and give me, oh say, ten moves in after 1. e4 d5
19 Oct 07
Originally posted by ih8senswhat supporting analysis, if any, does Crafty give for why it chose 1. ... e5?
Here's your refutation...
White gets a pawn that black can't get back.
Just play the game out and you're up a pawn and probably going to win, or at least be on the winning side of a draw.
Here's the line fritz gives.
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Nc3 c6 4. dxc6 Nxc6 5. Bc4
e5 6. Nf3 Bd6 7. d3 O-O 8. O-O Bg4
White's up a pawn, with balanced tempo.
Looks fine.
I still think either e6 or Bf5 is better...
19 Oct 07
Originally posted by rubberjaw30I'm not Korch, but maybe I can shed a little light on this shiznasty.
ok guys, I want opinion on this line of the Scandinavian and on the Scandinavian entirely. Not the most popular defence, it doesn't appear to be refutable...
[b]1. e4 d5
2. exd5 Nf6
3. Nc3 c6?!
4. dxc6 Nxc6
5. Bc4
[fen]r1bqkb1r/pp2pppp/2n2n2/8/2B5/2N5/PPPP1PPP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 1[/fen]
abejnood, on this site, goes to my school and is ...[text shortened]...
I played it OTB in a tourney once as white, and it drove me crazy.
I couldn't crack it![/b]
Ok, to answer question one - is the Scandi refutable?
A) Honestly, is that a joke? Of course it's not refutable, it's totally sound and played on every level. It's not as popular as things like the Sicilian or Ruy Lopez because it's not as deep. It's totally solid, and black has a nice choice of variations. It's got a reputation as being a total bitch to break down. If you're interested in the Scandi you should consider playing it, there are three main variations:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 (a. 2...Nf6 3.Nc3, c4, d4, etc.) 3.Nc3 Qa5 or 3...Qd6 (Less popular, maybe better?).
For your second question...well that's a little more complex. The first question you should ask is, should black really even play 3...c6? Are there better options? Are there more popular options? Is it safe even...?
Well, to be honest, I'm not sure you'll even have the opportunity to play it very often. Shredder DB shows the move 3.Nc3 as only the 5th most popular move (1.d4, 2.c4, 3.Bb5+, 4.Nf3, 5.Nc3). So it's probably nothing to really worry about. Anyhow, on to 3...c6. Is that the best option for black there? I doubt it. Check out the numbers on shredder again:
After 3.Nc3 black has played two different moves.
a. 3...Nxd5 (226 times)
b. 3...g6 (1 time)
Obviously, numbers aren't the be-all end-all. But it really seems pretty conclusive here, 3...Nxd5 appears completely sound for black and it scores 49.3%. Pretty solid. 3...c6, unfortunately, appears to simply relinquish a pawn with...well basically no compensation.
19 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by cmsMasterok, and no, asking if the Scandinavian was refutable was not a joke.
I'm not Korch, but maybe I can shed a little light on this shiznasty.
Ok, to answer question one - is the Scandi refutable?
A) Honestly, is that a joke? Of course it's not refutable, it's totally sound and played on every level. It's not as popular as things like the Sicilian or Ruy Lopez because it's not as deep. It's totally solid, and black h unately, appears to simply relinquish a pawn with...well basically no compensation.
In my mind, I had equated unpopularity with unsoundness, which is obviously wrong.
and yes, it is a bitch to break down...
in my only tourney encounter, I spent 45 minutes of my hour just on my first five moves, because I was treading in personally unchartered waters. had to blitz through the rest of it and I lost due to time troubles...
what GMs strongly advocate it?
and what lines do they give to support it?
I'll never touch this opening myself, but I do want to at least have an idea of how to get past it if I do.
and like I said, at first glance, I thought black did have positional compensation after Bf5 and Rc8... but if Shredder says I'm being a moron...
19 Oct 07
Originally posted by rubberjaw30I doubt you'll find much compensation there, what advantages do you really think black has?
ok, and no, asking if the Scandinavian was refutable.
In my mind, I had equated unpopularity with unsoundness, which is obviously wrong.
and yes, it is a bitch to break down...
in my only tourney encounter, I spent 45 minutes of my hour just on my first five moves, because I was treading in personally unchartered waters.
what GMs strongly advocate it ...[text shortened]... id have positional compensation after Bf5 and Rc8... but if Shredder says I'm being a moron...
Anyhow, the most popular is 2...Qxd5, then 2...Nf6.
After 2...Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 is most popular followed by 3...Qd6, I've played 3...Qd6 before and it's quite sound.
19 Oct 07
Originally posted by cmsMasteryes, I'm somewhat familiar with the 2. ... Qxd5 line...
I doubt you'll find much compensation there, what advantages do you really think black has?
Anyhow, the most popular is 2...Qxd5, then 2...Nf6.
After 2...Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 is most popular followed by 3...Qd6, I've played 3...Qd6 before and it's quite sound.
I'm just looking at other options...
and as for what I thought black had...
Apparently, It was a "ghost attack" on c2 which is just negated by pawn to c3 at any time white so chooses. So, on from the c6 line which seems unsound. let's just talk about Scandi past move three...
after Qa5, I've always played d4, which seems most logical.
what say ye?
19 Oct 07
Originally posted by rubberjaw30Yeah, it's a solid setup. As white when I played e4 I liked to create something like the setup described here:
yes, I'm somewhat familiar with the 2. ... Qxd5 line...
I'm just looking at other options...
and as for what I thought black had...
Apparently, It was a "ghost attack" on c2 which is just negated by pawn to c3 at any time white so chooses. So, on from the c6 line which seems unsound. let's just talk about Scandi past move three...
after Qa5, I've always played d4, which seems most logical.
what say ye?
http://chessville.com/instruction/Openings/Martin/Aug04b.htm
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.d3 c6 6.Bd2
Tricky stuff from white, simple and solid.
19 Oct 07
I have to say, I absolutely enjoy when Black plays this stupid ..c6 move. What could possibly justify this move? White didn't do anything wrong, and he's way too solid to have anything bad happen to him. It seems to be like Bb5 may be better than Bc4, if only because the d4 is just about the only thing that black has here. But that's obviously not enough. I think just solid development and castling should see white keep a pawn.
19 Oct 07
Originally posted by rubberjaw30In my opinion this gambit is not sound - white have no weaknesses.
ok guys, I want opinion on this line of the Scandinavian and on the Scandinavian entirely. Not the most popular defence, it doesn't appear to be refutable...
[b]1. e4 d5
2. exd5 Nf6
3. Nc3 c6?!
4. dxc6 Nxc6
5. Bc4
[fen]r1bqkb1r/pp2pppp/2n2n2/8/2B5/2N5/PPPP1PPP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 1[/fen]
abejnood, on this site, goes to my school and is ...[text shortened]...
I played it OTB in a tourney once as white, and it drove me crazy.
I couldn't crack it![/b]