Go back
Shouldn't this be a draw?

Shouldn't this be a draw?

Only Chess

Vote Up
Vote Down

Game 3115123

I know the game is in progress, but I thought that this is a draw by getting the same position three time according to the rule:

Third repetition of a position. If any identical position appears three times during a game, then the game can be claimed as a draw. Please note that each repetition must be identical with regards to en passant and castling availability. A draw can only be claimed along with a move that contributes to a repetition. Claiming after the repetition has occurred is not possible, unless the same position can be repeated again on a future move.

The identical positions were at moves 39-42-44, with whites King on f2, whites Rook on d1, blacks King on e7, bishops on a6 and b8. Pawns and white knight haven't moved in this sequence. I claimed the draw when making the 44th move.

Did I misunderstood something here?

Vote Up
Vote Down

You have to claim the draw, just like in a real game.

Vote Up
Vote Down

he said he claimed it on move 44. The last repetition.

Vote Up
Vote Down

Originally posted by Dance Master MC
he said he claimed it on move 44. The last repetition.
Yes, I claimed by pressing the "claim draw" button, confirming by ticking a box and then pressed the "move" button.

The problem might be that I have to claim before moving. That means before actually the position was repeated the third time. However, after moving I do not have the option anymore to claim a draw.

Vote Up
Vote Down

The position on move 39 is different as it's black to move.

Vote Up
Vote Down

Originally posted by Schumi
The position on move 39 is different as it's black to move.
Does that really count as different position? The pieces on the board are all on the same squares.

Vote Up
Vote Down

Sorry, I didn't read it properly.

When you make the claim for threefold repetition you call over the arbiter BEFORE you make your move and say "when I make my next move" (which you must have written down) "the same position will have occurred three times".

Now, in this case Black cannot do this because he didn't play the same move each time the position in question was reached, after 44...Ke7 that position, with the king on e7, has only occurred twice.

Vote Up
Vote Down

Originally posted by gambit05
Does that really count as different position?
Yes. As you've seen.

from FIDE Rule 9.2

"Positions... are considered the same, if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same. Positions are not the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant can no longer in this manner be captured or if the right to castle has been changed temporarily or permanently."

Vote Up
Vote Down

Thanks to Fat Lady and Schumi. So, I still have to learn something about the basic rules. I didn't know the FIDE rules, the RHP rules should be clarified on this point.

Vote Up
Vote Down

Originally posted by Fat Lady
When you make the claim for threefold repetition you call over the arbiter BEFORE you make your move and say "when I make my next move" (which you must have written down) "the same position will have occurred three times".
Hang on, but I thought you weren't allowed to write the move down before moving (technically speaking, not that I've ever seen it enforced)?

Vote Up
Vote Down

Originally posted by Fat Lady
Sorry, I didn't read it properly.

When you make the claim for threefold repetition you call over the arbiter BEFORE you make your move and say "when I make my next move" (which you must have written down) "the same position will have occurred three times".

Now, in this case Black cannot do this because he didn't play the same move each time the positi ...[text shortened]... n was reached, after 44...Ke7 that position, with the king on e7, has only occurred twice.
It has nothing to do with making the same move 3 times.

You only have to reach the same position with the same player having the move. You can attain a 3rd repeat of a position using 3 different moves to get to that position.

If your opponent puts you in the same position a 3rd time with you having the move, that is not sufficient for a draw. If the first two times you were in a position you made different moves, you won't have a basis to claim a draw on your next move. Of course your opponent could have claimed a draw with such a move, but if he/she doesn't you can't.

It can only be claimed by putting your opponent in the same position 3 times with him/her having the move.

Vote Up
Vote Down

Originally posted by techsouth
It has nothing to do with making the same move 3 times.

You only have to reach the same position with the same player having the move. You can attain a 3rd repeat of a position using 3 different moves to get to that position.

If your opponent puts you in the same position a 3rd time with you having the move, that is not sufficient for a draw. If th ...[text shortened]... e claimed by putting your opponent in the same position 3 times with him/her having the move.
If your opponents move creates a 3-fold repetition and he doesn't claim it then you can claim it before you move.

Of course if he has created an identical position 3 times by making the same move again you will also create it with your move. This can occur at any time in the game.

In the game quoted there has only been a 2-fold repetition.

Vote Up
Vote Down

The original poster knew he was commenting on a game in progress, but he did it anyway. Several others have also commented on this in-progress game in this thread. You guys just can't follow simple rules, can you?

1 edit
Vote Up
Vote Down

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
If your opponents move creates a 3-fold repetition and he doesn't claim it then you can claim it before you move.

Really, I didn't know this. I don't think RHP gives the option to claim a draw this way without moving.

Of course if he has created an identical position 3 times by making the same move again you will also create it with your move. This can occur at any time in the game.

Not necessarily. As I said, if you make two different moves the first two times you get to a position, your 3rd move does not give a basis to claim a draw.

1 edit
Vote Up
Vote Down

Originally posted by techsouth
Not necessarily. As I said, if you make two different moves the first two times you get to a position, your 3rd move does not give a basis to claim a draw.
It does not matter what move you make to get to the position nor what move you make from the position. What matters is that the position is dynamically the same (i.e. that all the same moves are possible, including e.p., castling, etc.). If RHP does not permit this then there is a flaw in its draw algorithim.