Originally posted by huntingbearYeah, f6 is terrible! I once played this(on purpose) in a 5 min. tournament as a way to get a HUGE piece development advantage!
Too true! And ...Bg7 is natural after 3...g6, but not after 4...f6. Also, 4...Nf6 develops a piece to its best square, while 4...f6 just spends a tempo and creates weaknesses.
1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 Nf6?! (probably, didn't really analyze it) 3. Qxe5+ Be7 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. Qb5 a6 6. Qe2 d5 7. Nxd5 Nxd5 8. exd5 Qxd5
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Originally posted by sylvander4....,f6? why f6?Why not just Nf6,get out another piece,much better me thinks 🙂
1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 Nc6 3. Bc4 g6 4. Qf3 f6 - and white has lost a tempo.
Edit: I just noticed bear already said this.I agree with bear! 😀
Edit2: Now I noticed that there has an entire discussion developed about f6.I agree that it's a bad move 😕
Edit3: Sorry,I'm a tad bit drunk 😛
Originally posted by LivingLegendI'm not a GM, iI'm only a club player but I've palyed against 1.f4 lots of games and I know how to play with black... I mean, if black doesn't play the right moves white is better, but if black plays the main line white is not good... no chance to easily win, I mean.
Ever played 1.f4? (It's a question, not a questionable move, it's a great move!)
I don't know if you're a GM, but I doubt it that you'll beat me when I play it! :-)
Olav
And... for the guy that "doesn't eant to play in the book till 17" and "wants to create something new on the chessborad" (or something like this, I don't remeber...) only one thing: AGAINST A STRONG PLAYER, PLAYING UNUSUAL MOVES IS THE EASIEST WAY TO LOSE!! (just ask yourself.... why great masters never open 1.h4 or 1.Na3???)
Lordste
Originally posted by lordsteWell, good players usually beat bad players. But in my opinion the easiest way to lose against a good player is to go down the beaten path and face them in a position you've seen two times and they've seen twenty. My few wins against strong players have been in double-edged positions way off the beaten path.
AGAINST A STRONG PLAYER, PLAYING UNUSUAL MOVES IS THE EASIEST WAY TO LOSE!! (just ask yourself.... why great masters never open 1.h4 or 1.Na3???)
Plenty of masters play offbeat openings. Before the hypermoderns answering d4 with anything other than d5 was considered irresponsible. Alekhine played Alekhine's and the Benoni before they were considered sound. Miles beat Karpov answering 1. e4 with a6. IM Michael Basman went years without playing a "normal" opening. Spassky and Keres won tournament games with the Latvian etc. etc.
Originally posted by sylvanderThe question is not whether you can beat me (or anyone else) in that position. The question is not even whether White or Black is better (I wouldn't want to be either one!). The question is whether 4...f6 is a mistake. It is. You call it 'playable,' but many mistakes are playable! Usually it takes more than one mistake to lose a game.
if anyone wants to play me from that position then feel free to challenge me.
The only point I can see to 4...f6 is that it prevents 5. Qxf7#. But there are better ways to accomplish the same goal. Even 4...Qe7 is much better than 4...f6. But 4...Nf6 is clearly best.
Black, with 4...f6, loses a tempo by not developing when he can and should, takes away f6 from his Knight (notice that one of White's difficulties here is that he has denied his own N the f3-square), further blocks up the long diagonal for the Bishop which should go to g7, and weakens his K-side. I would be interested to know what advantages 4...f6 confers to Black which compensate for these weaknesses...
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For what it's worth, I'm compiling a database of PGN files of IM/GM quality. I've currently got +-790 000 files in the database. According to this, the best opening moves for white (with win % in brackets) are:
1. c4: 56.3%
2. d4: 55.9%
3. Nf3: 55.7%
4. b4: 55.7%
5. g3: 55.6%
6. e4: 54.2%
7. Nc3: 48.9%
8. f4: 47.3%
(I only included those with significant enough samples)
So what is black's best reply to each of the above? According to the DBase:
c4 b6 (reduces white win% to 49.6% )
d4 e5 (reduces white win% to 49.1% )
Nf3 c5 (reduces white win% to 53.7% )
b4 c6 (reduces white win% to 48.0% )
g3 e5 (reduces white win% to 52.2% )
e4 c5 (reduces white win% to 52.3% )
Nc3 c5 (reduces white win% to 40.2% )
f4 g6 (reduces white win% to 44.9% )
Of course, for most of us a few percentage points isn't going to make much improvement in our play, so the above is mostly of interest value only, rather than being of practical use.
Your opening move may shape the game, but it is not going to be the determining factor.
Originally posted by huntingbear4....f6 allows for more immediate attacking options that 4....Nf6 doesn't, particularly with an eventual ....f5 backed up by the queenside bishop. If black can castle queenside then it's even better.
The question is not whether you can beat me (or anyone else) in that position. The question is not even whether White or Black is better (I wouldn't want to be either one!). The question is whether 4...f6 is a mistake. It is. You call it 'playable,' but many mistakes are playable! Usually it takes more than one mistake to lose a game.
The only point ...[text shortened]... erested to know what advantages 4...f6 confers to Black which compensate for these weaknesses...
Also, you claim that the natural placement for the bishop is g7, but I would argue that there was a case for having it on h6 in this opening - forcing white to castle kingside before developing the d-pawn.
4....f6 is not a mistake IMHO.
Originally posted by sylvander...Bh6 remains possible after 4...Nf6, and I don't see big enough attacking chances with 4...f6 to offset its clear weaknesses (lost time, awkward development for g8 Knight, weakened K-side, blocked diagonal in the event of ...Bg7). The drawbacks outweigh any advantage (real or imagined) and there's no special reason to prefer 4...f6 to the natural 4...Nf6, which develops efficiently, effectively, and without creating more weaknesses. Perhaps we must remain disagreed. Surely it's no loss to opening theory if two patzers like ourselves don't agree about a position in such a ridiculous opening as the Scholar's Mate attack! I suppose any player of the White pieces silly enough to open this way is as likely to lose to 4...f6 as to 4...Nf6 anyway 🙂
4....f6 is not a mistake IMHO.