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The Panov Botvinnik Attack is busted!

The Panov Botvinnik Attack is busted!

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I won my quickest over the board game for many years tonight. I think the Panov Botvinnik Attack is White's best try against the Caro Kann, but this time White walked into a cheapo:

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1.e4c6
2.d4d5
3.exd5cxd5
4.c4Nf6
5.Nc3g6
6.h3Bg7
7.Nf3O-O
8.Be3Nc6
9.Rc1Qa5
10.Qd2Rd8
11.cxd5Nxd5
12.Bc4Be6
13.Ng5Nxe3
14.Bxe6Qxg5
15.Bxf7Kxf7
16.fxe3Qg3
17.Kd1Nxd4

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      Having gone through the game with an engine, I'm actually really pleased with the way I played. I manged to find eight moves of theory (sort of!) despite being on my own from move 4, and when White blundered Black was already slightly better.

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      I disagree with your assessment. Rather than being White's best try against the C-K, I consider the P-B to be an over-rated piece of rubbish, along with its cousin, the Advance Variation. The best move for White is 3.Nc3. As to the game, White played poorly and passively. 6.h3 was just a waste of time.

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      Hi Sundown,

      I'm not a Caro Kann lad but it looks like Datafly is and if he
      reckons this is the line he dislikes playing against then....

      That h3 move may be theory but I agree it does look odd.

      My line was the Advanced for years, it did OK. Switched to Nc3 later on -
      then switched back again.


      Originally posted by sundown316
      I disagree with your assessment. Rather than being White's best try against the C-K, I consider the P-B to be an over-rated piece of rubbish, along with its cousin, the Advance Variation. The best move for White is 3.Nc3. As to the game, White played poorly and passively. 6.h3 was just a waste of time.
      Destructive criticism like this is what deters others from posting their games.


      Hi Wolfy,

      It's not destructive - just a way of putting forward a different point of view.

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      Originally posted by wolfgang59
      Destructive criticism like this is what deters others from posting their games.
      I tell it like it is, I pull no punches, and I call them as I see them. I played the C-K as Black for over 30 years. I didn't face the P-B too many times, but I had an 80% win rate vs. the Advance Variation. And the reason why I think those 2 variations are so poor for White is that backward, isolated d-pawn White gets, an easy target for Black.

      3 edits
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      Originally posted by sundown316
      I disagree with your assessment. Rather than being White's best try against the C-K, I consider the P-B to be an over-rated piece of rubbish, along with its cousin, the Advance Variation. The best move for White is 3.Nc3. As to the game, White played poorly and passively. 6.h3 was just a waste of time.
      I don't know and haven't checked but 6. h3 is likely to be theory. The move I'd point to is 13.Ng5, a lot of white's subsequent trouble was due to not being castled. So my suggestion is 13. 0-0. There may be a good concrete reason he didn't, but that's the improvement I'd point to, based on intuition and experience rather than carefully checking black's tactical options.

      EDIT: just seen your reply to Wolfgang. I tend to play the fantasy variation (3.f3), with variable success, as it normally goes into French like lines or a gambit. I don't see the Caro enough to justify spending lots of time on it, and don't play it as black; so 3. f3 is ideal as my guess is that most Caro players don't see it so often either - it's labour saving device I'm not claiming it's chess truth. The isolated d-pawn in the Panov-Botvinnik is both a weakness and a strength. They can be a liability, but they can also win games.

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      I find the fantasy variation difficult to play against as well, at least in blitz (I've yet to meet it in a serious game). This is the line I've been playing, but I'm far from happy with the position that Black ends up with after just five moves!

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      1.e4c6
      2.d4d5
      3.f3dxe4
      4.fxe4e5
      5.Nf3

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          That's heading towards the gambit line I mentioned, on the whole I'd say it's playing into white's hands. Here's an example of the gambit line working well, but I don't think what black was trying was ever going to work:

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          1.e4c6
          2.d4d5
          3.f3dxe4
          4.fxe4e5
          5.Nf3exd4
          6.Bc4b5
          7.Bb3a5
          8.O-ORa7
          9.Ne5Be6
          10.Bxe6fxe6
          11.Qh5

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              Playing 3. e6 and heading into a French-like positions probably best, although if you only see the line in lightening games it may not be the way to play. This is a win for me, but illustrates what black can try to head into:

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              1.e4c6
              2.d4d5
              3.f3e6
              4.Nc3Nf6
              5.e5Nfd7
              6.f4c5
              7.Nf3Nc6
              8.Be3Qb6
              9.Na4Qa5
              10.c3cxd4
              11.b4Nxb4
              12.cxb4Bxb4
              13.Bd2Bxd2
              14.Nxd2b5
              15.Nb2O-O
              16.Bd3f6
              17.Qh5g6
              18.Bxg6hxg6
              19.Qxg6Kh8
              20.O-O

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                  Black has adequate resources against PB.


                  Well, if you tell it like it is, it has to be true. Thank you Capablanca! lol!

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                  Originally posted by moonbus
                  Black has adequate resources against PB.
                  Yes, but that can be said of any defence for black which isn't actually refuted.

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                  Originally posted by DeepThought
                  that can be said of any defence for black which isn't actually refuted.
                  For further material on the CK, I refer interested readers to Karpov and Beliavski, Caro-Kann Verteidigung Richtig Gespielt (German edition by J. Beyer Verlag; no doubt there is an English edition). There is a section on PB, some wins some loses, with excellent analysis.

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                  I have tried 4. ... e6 against the Panov Botvinnik quite a few times in blitz game and it does tend to end up with a position I'm happy with. However the statistics on 365chess.com suggest that White wins about 50% of the games and Black only 25%. The numbers are much closer with 4. ... Nf6

                  http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=8&n=94&ms=e4.c6.d4.d5.exd5.cxd5.c4&ns=3.31.21.32.93.99.94

                  In my game - I was quite surprised by 6. h3 but it has been played before and I think I can see the reasoning behind it: Black has one obvious square to develop his light-squared bishop, namely g4 (probably after Nf3 by White). He can also play the more surprising Be6 in some lines, but this is generally only good if White has played Bg5, meaning an immediate Ng5 isn't possible. I believe the idea behind 6. h3 is that White intends to prevent Bg4 and then discourage Be6 by not playing Bg5. Of course Black can always leave his bishop on c8, which is better than you might think.

                  Whilst I welcome all comments, I'm afraid that I can't take seriously sundown316's statement that the Panov Botvinnik attack is "an over-rated piece of rubbish". This is an opening that has been used to defeat the likes of Euwe, Botvinnik and Karpov! Like almost every opening and defence which has earned a name, it is certainly playable at my level (my opponent in the game I posted is ~1900 FIDE and I'm ~2100)

                  Anyway, I'd like to end with this game, which I found amusing for various reasons:

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                  1.e4c6
                  2.d4d5
                  3.exd5cxd5
                  4.c4Nf6
                  5.Nc3Nc6
                  6.Nf3Bg4
                  7.cxd5Nxd5
                  8.Qb3Bxf3
                  9.gxf3Nb6
                  10.Be3e6
                  11.Rd1Be7
                  12.d5exd5
                  13.Nxd5Nxd5
                  14.Rxd5Qc7
                  15.Bb5O-O
                  16.O-Oa6
                  17.Bd3Rfd8
                  18.Bb6

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                      Originally posted by greenpawn34
                      That h3 move may be theory but I agree it does look odd.
                      6. Qb3, Dolmatov-Adams, Hastings 1989, 1-0. The Black fianchetto-line is analyzed in Karpov-Beliavski.

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