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  1. 05 Mar '15 01:06
    I won my quickest over the board game for many years tonight. I think the Panov Botvinnik Attack is White's best try against the Caro Kann, but this time White walked into a cheapo:


    Having gone through the game with an engine, I'm actually really pleased with the way I played. I manged to find eight moves of theory (sort of!) despite being on my own from move 4, and when White blundered Black was already slightly better.
  2. Subscriber sundown316
    The Mighty Messenger
    05 Mar '15 02:57 / 1 edit
    I disagree with your assessment. Rather than being White's best try against the C-K, I consider the P-B to be an over-rated piece of rubbish, along with its cousin, the Advance Variation. The best move for White is 3.Nc3. As to the game, White played poorly and passively. 6.h3 was just a waste of time.
  3. 05 Mar '15 03:33
    Hi Sundown,

    I'm not a Caro Kann lad but it looks like Datafly is and if he
    reckons this is the line he dislikes playing against then....

    That h3 move may be theory but I agree it does look odd.

    My line was the Advanced for years, it did OK. Switched to Nc3 later on -
    then switched back again.
  4. Standard member wolfgang59
    Infidel
    05 Mar '15 03:48
    Originally posted by sundown316
    I disagree with your assessment. Rather than being White's best try against the C-K, I consider the P-B to be an over-rated piece of rubbish, along with its cousin, the Advance Variation. The best move for White is 3.Nc3. As to the game, White played poorly and passively. 6.h3 was just a waste of time.
    Destructive criticism like this is what deters others from posting their games.
  5. 05 Mar '15 14:06
    Hi Wolfy,

    It's not destructive - just a way of putting forward a different point of view.
  6. Subscriber sundown316
    The Mighty Messenger
    05 Mar '15 15:55
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Destructive criticism like this is what deters others from posting their games.
    I tell it like it is, I pull no punches, and I call them as I see them. I played the C-K as Black for over 30 years. I didn't face the P-B too many times, but I had an 80% win rate vs. the Advance Variation. And the reason why I think those 2 variations are so poor for White is that backward, isolated d-pawn White gets, an easy target for Black.
  7. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    05 Mar '15 16:38 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by sundown316
    I disagree with your assessment. Rather than being White's best try against the C-K, I consider the P-B to be an over-rated piece of rubbish, along with its cousin, the Advance Variation. The best move for White is 3.Nc3. As to the game, White played poorly and passively. 6.h3 was just a waste of time.
    I don't know and haven't checked but 6. h3 is likely to be theory. The move I'd point to is 13.Ng5, a lot of white's subsequent trouble was due to not being castled. So my suggestion is 13. 0-0. There may be a good concrete reason he didn't, but that's the improvement I'd point to, based on intuition and experience rather than carefully checking black's tactical options.

    EDIT: just seen your reply to Wolfgang. I tend to play the fantasy variation (3.f3), with variable success, as it normally goes into French like lines or a gambit. I don't see the Caro enough to justify spending lots of time on it, and don't play it as black; so 3. f3 is ideal as my guess is that most Caro players don't see it so often either - it's labour saving device I'm not claiming it's chess truth. The isolated d-pawn in the Panov-Botvinnik is both a weakness and a strength. They can be a liability, but they can also win games.
  8. 05 Mar '15 17:39
    I find the fantasy variation difficult to play against as well, at least in blitz (I've yet to meet it in a serious game). This is the line I've been playing, but I'm far from happy with the position that Black ends up with after just five moves!
  9. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    05 Mar '15 18:21
    That's heading towards the gambit line I mentioned, on the whole I'd say it's playing into white's hands. Here's an example of the gambit line working well, but I don't think what black was trying was ever going to work:


    Playing 3. e6 and heading into a French-like positions probably best, although if you only see the line in lightening games it may not be the way to play. This is a win for me, but illustrates what black can try to head into:

  10. Subscriber moonbus
    Uber-Nerd
    05 Mar '15 18:26
    Black has adequate resources against PB.
  11. 05 Mar '15 18:33
    Well, if you tell it like it is, it has to be true. Thank you Capablanca! lol!
  12. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    05 Mar '15 18:47
    Originally posted by moonbus
    Black has adequate resources against PB.
    Yes, but that can be said of any defence for black which isn't actually refuted.
  13. Subscriber moonbus
    Uber-Nerd
    06 Mar '15 12:07
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    that can be said of any defence for black which isn't actually refuted.
    For further material on the CK, I refer interested readers to Karpov and Beliavski, Caro-Kann Verteidigung Richtig Gespielt (German edition by J. Beyer Verlag; no doubt there is an English edition). There is a section on PB, some wins some loses, with excellent analysis.
  14. 06 Mar '15 12:56
    I have tried 4. ... e6 against the Panov Botvinnik quite a few times in blitz game and it does tend to end up with a position I'm happy with. However the statistics on 365chess.com suggest that White wins about 50% of the games and Black only 25%. The numbers are much closer with 4. ... Nf6

    http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=8&n=94&ms=e4.c6.d4.d5.exd5.cxd5.c4&ns=3.31.21.32.93.99.94

    In my game - I was quite surprised by 6. h3 but it has been played before and I think I can see the reasoning behind it: Black has one obvious square to develop his light-squared bishop, namely g4 (probably after Nf3 by White). He can also play the more surprising Be6 in some lines, but this is generally only good if White has played Bg5, meaning an immediate Ng5 isn't possible. I believe the idea behind 6. h3 is that White intends to prevent Bg4 and then discourage Be6 by not playing Bg5. Of course Black can always leave his bishop on c8, which is better than you might think.

    Whilst I welcome all comments, I'm afraid that I can't take seriously sundown316's statement that the Panov Botvinnik attack is "an over-rated piece of rubbish". This is an opening that has been used to defeat the likes of Euwe, Botvinnik and Karpov! Like almost every opening and defence which has earned a name, it is certainly playable at my level (my opponent in the game I posted is ~1900 FIDE and I'm ~2100)

    Anyway, I'd like to end with this game, which I found amusing for various reasons:

  15. Subscriber moonbus
    Uber-Nerd
    06 Mar '15 13:44
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    That h3 move may be theory but I agree it does look odd.
    6. Qb3, Dolmatov-Adams, Hastings 1989, 1-0. The Black fianchetto-line is analyzed in Karpov-Beliavski.