Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

Tiwakings f4 Birds Opening Thread

Standard memberTiwaking
Only Chess 28 Dec '10 07:40
  1. T
    Standard memberTiwaking
    Joined
    26 Jan '10
    Moves
    1174
    17 Jan '11 21:162 edits
    Just finished an excellent Birds Opening game against user skanda79 ( http://www.redhotpawn.com/profile/playerprofile.php?uid=612743 ) and before you all yell at me: YES I resigned in pretty much drawn position.

    Draws make your score look untidy.

    Here is skanda79's analysis of the game and I must say that it is very, very different from my own perspective of what was happening.

    edit: The post is too big! I will link to the web page containing the analysis instead.

    http://www.redhotpawn.com/annotation/annotationinteractive.php?annotationid=580

    [gid]http://www.redhotpawn.com/core/playchess.php?gameid=8047486&cbqsid=7026[/gid]
    edit2: Better post up the game too I suppose! This board does not have annotations.
    Invert BoardPGNHeaders
  2. Standard membertmetzler
    Joined
    03 Sep '03
    Moves
    87628
    18 Jan '11 17:13
    Originally posted by Tiwaking
    Here is skanda79's analysis of the game and I must say that it is very, very different from my own perspective of what was happening.
    http://www.redhotpawn.com/annotation/annotationinteractive.php?annotationid=580
    From your opponents analysis:
    "My opponents annotation caught my eye especially the words by my opponent that the Bird is the greatest opening in the world These words were enough for me to challenge him as black. I have never played the bird myself as I feelits not a solid opening"

    This seems like as good of place as any to post an excerpt from IM Taylor's excellent book on the opening.

    Excerpt from Preface:
    Every chess player who plays the Bird's (including myself, and I have played the opening throughout my chess career) has had the following experience. Someone will come up to you, regardless of whether you have won or lost your game, and ask, "Why are you playing that unsound opening?" I have learned that there is no good answer - no matter what you say, your new 'friend' will not be convinced. Even at the board, weak players will look hungrily at your king after 1. f4, perhaps supposing that you have practically helpmated yourself. Strong players will sniff disapprovingly, as though it were impossible for a real chess palyer to venture such a move.
    And yet these same players will play the Dutch Defence without a qualm. They will tell you how much they learned from Botvinnik's book, One hundred Selected Games - a book littered with Dutch Defences!
    What is the main line of the Bird's? Look in any statistical database and the result is always the same: by far the most popular answer to 1.f4 is 1...d5. .... But what exactly is 1.f4 d5? It is precisely a Dutch in reverse with an extra tempo.
    If chess has any logic at all, and I believe that it does, then if the Dutch is a sound opening for Black (and countless grandmasters and world champions agree) it must be good with an extra move!
  3. w
    Standard memberwormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    We're All Gonna Go!
    Joined
    10 Sep '05
    Moves
    10228
    18 Jan '11 17:57
    Originally posted by tmetzler
    From your opponents analysis:
    "My opponents annotation caught my eye especially the words by my opponent that the Bird is the greatest opening in the world These words were enough for me to challenge him as black. [b]I have never played the bird myself as I feelits not a solid opening    "

    This seems like as good of place as any to post an excerp ...[text shortened]... ntless grandmasters and world champions agree) it must be good with an extra move![/b][/b]
    now that nakamura seems to play leningrad quite regularly, it would be extremely interesting to see how he'd treat the bird. he definitely doesn't lack the cojones to try less traveled paths, so maybe we'll get lucky one of these days.
  4. n
    Standard membernimzo5
    Ronin
    Hereford Boathouse
    Joined
    08 Oct '09
    Moves
    29575
    18 Jan '11 20:02
    Originally posted by tmetzler
    From your opponents analysis:
    "My opponents annotation caught my eye especially the words by my opponent that the Bird is the greatest opening in the world These words were enough for me to challenge him as black. [b]I have never played the bird myself as I feelits not a solid opening    "

    This seems like as good of place as any to post an excerp ...[text shortened]... ntless grandmasters and world champions agree) it must be good with an extra move![/b][/b]
    If playing colors reversed openings with an extra tempo was truly best- we all would be playing the English opening.

    The Bird forces no real concessions, i.e. weakened pawn structure, bishop pair etc.. on Black and so it is hard to make it a useful system when playing for a win at the top.
  5. Standard membertmetzler
    Joined
    03 Sep '03
    Moves
    87628
    19 Jan '11 01:041 edit
    Originally posted by nimzo5
    If playing colors reversed openings with an extra tempo was truly best- we all would be playing the English opening.

    The Bird forces no real concessions, i.e. weakened pawn structure, bishop pair etc.. on Black and so it is hard to make it a useful system when playing for a win at the top.
    Funny enough Taylor mentions the English later on in that same preface:

    "But if you are an independent thinker, if you can make the simple analogy that the Dutch with a move in hand cannot be bad and should be good; if you can see that the Bird, just like the respected English, seizes an important central square but, unlike the English, also aims a pawn at the Black king; if you enjoy the thought of forcing Black into your opening on the very first move (instead of the 1e4 player having to contend with Sicilians, Frenches, Caro-Kanns, etc), then this opeing is indeed for you."

    Dictating the game (into an unfamiliar game/lines) from the first move might count as a "concession", yes?
  6. T
    Standard memberTiwaking
    Joined
    26 Jan '10
    Moves
    1174
    19 Jan '11 03:061 edit
    Here is my take on our excellent game. I think Skanda deserves the win considering it is the first time he's ever seen so far ahead into a game.

    I still remember the first time I saw fourteen moves ahead. You never forget experiences like that!
    Invert BoardPGNHeadersComments
  7. n
    Standard membernimzo5
    Ronin
    Hereford Boathouse
    Joined
    08 Oct '09
    Moves
    29575
    19 Jan '11 13:28
    Originally posted by tmetzler
    Funny enough Taylor mentions the English later on in that same preface:

    "But if you are an independent thinker, if you can make the simple analogy that the Dutch with a move in hand cannot be bad and should be good; if you can see [b]that the Bird, just like the respected English, seizes an important central square but, unlike the English, also aims a pa ...[text shortened]... game (into an unfamiliar game/lines) from the first move might count as a "concession", yes?
    Not to bag on IM Taylor (he has a very interesting system in the Dutch defense) I prefer his travel writing to his opening ideas.

    Just like 1.f4 you could play 1. Na3 and "dictate" play from the first move- I don't consider that a concession, especially considering to reach equality in the Bird you just play a simple fianchetto.

    I am not out to spoil your fun, but let's be a bit more objective about the actual merits of at best a low tier second rate opening.
  8. w
    Standard memberwormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    We're All Gonna Go!
    Joined
    10 Sep '05
    Moves
    10228
    19 Jan '11 15:041 edit
    Originally posted by nimzo5

    Just like 1.f4 you could play 1. Na3 and "dictate" play from the first move- I don't consider that a concession, especially considering to reach equality in the Bird you just play a simple fianchetto.
    that's what what people who are unfamiliar with the dutch leningrad say as well. it's not that easy. just because white seems to be pushing pawns instead of developing, doesn't mean he's not building the attack. it just matures slower, building more energy.

    and since when isn't forcing white to push g6 a concession? 🙂 (frankly I've never understood why kingside fianchetto is supposed to be 'the antidote' against dutch on either color. the defender won't exchange it practically ever anyway, for even a rook, so where's the threat? it doesn't stop e4-f5 sacs either. it's totally useless most of the time, unlike the dutch player's mighty bishops.)

    the disdain against 1.f4 is simply rubbish, pure and simple. the root of it stems from classical school vs hypermodern rather than concrete analysis. when pressed, the critic always returns to "but white pushes f4? that's RONG! RRRONGG!" and yet the 'more sound' similar 1.e4 attacks practically always seek to push f4 after some silly knight maneuvering and time wasting.

    IF 1.f4 push itself was bad, the refutation should obviously lie somewhere in the From/staunton -type of gambit positions. but nothing good has been found so far. the best try agains dutch/bird still is to sit back, and wait for it.


    okay, I admit a little provocation here. 🙂
  9. n
    Standard membernimzo5
    Ronin
    Hereford Boathouse
    Joined
    08 Oct '09
    Moves
    29575
    19 Jan '11 16:27
    Originally posted by wormwood
    that's what what people who are unfamiliar with the dutch leningrad say as well. it's not that easy. just because white seems to be pushing pawns instead of developing, doesn't mean he's not building the attack. it just matures slower, building more energy.

    and since when isn't forcing white to push g6 a concession? 🙂 (frankly I've never understood why ...[text shortened]... to sit back, and wait for it.


    okay, I admit a little provocation here. 🙂
    First off, the point of the Fianchetto is it the best pawn structure to face kingside attacks. See the Mar del Plata KID for examples of alternate pawn structures and how they hold up. It isn't so much about the Fianchetto Bishop as it is the sturdiness of the defense - (Dragon afficianado's swear by it)

    Second, I didn't say the Bird is refuted (or refudiated lol). Just that it is the red headed step child cousin of such 2nd tier openings as the KIA, the Closed Sicilian and the GPA I suppose.

    I don't think it is a question of Hyper-Modern vs Classical, it is a question of the power of the iniative in modern chess. Openings that instantly cede the iniative are infrequent visitors to top level play where putting pressure on your opponent is paramount.

    At the club level play whatever you want- I have even pulled off a Hobbs gambit 1.f4 g5 2. fxg5 h6 in CC against the Bird.
  10. Standard membertmetzler
    Joined
    03 Sep '03
    Moves
    87628
    19 Jan '11 16:58
    Originally posted by nimzo5
    I am not out to spoil your fun, but let's be a bit more objective about the actual merits of at best a low tier second rate opening.
    No worries. I still find the bird fun and effective. Luckily, the good part is that at best I'm a low tier second rate player. 🙂
Back to Top
Sign up or Connect to Play Chess

Cookies help us deliver our Services. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Learn More.I Agree