touch move?

Originally posted by Mad Rook
The USCF rules are interesting in regards to the TD's discretionary powers. Sometimes he has no choice and must apply penalties or forfeit a player. But very often, he can choose whether to simply issue a warning, or to apply a penalty (and even the severity of the penalty). One thing I've learned from playing in tournaments is that one of the main responsi ...[text shortened]... ons by using common sense when interpreting the rules. And sometimes that's not an easy task.

I didn't mean that the discretionary powers of the TD strange in general...just with respect to that weird castling rule. If the rule states that it's ok, then how can a player be punished for it (you alluded to this oddity).

Originally posted by MrHand
I didn't mean that the discretionary powers of the TD strange in general...just with respect to that weird castling rule. If the rule states that it's ok, then how can a player be punished for it (you alluded to this oddity).

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying.

Originally posted by MrHand
I didn't mean that the discretionary powers of the TD strange in general...just with respect to that weird castling rule. If the rule states that it's ok, then how can a player be punished for it (you alluded to this oddity).

I'll give you another weird one that you might not be aware of. Recently, the USCF changed the rule about recording your move before playing it. They changed the rule so that you were REQUIRED to make your move before recording it on your scoresheet (with the only exception being if you were using one of those expensive MonRoi electronic scoresheets). Well, this rule was VERY unpopular with many TDs and players, since many scholastic players were taught to do exactly the opposite to prevent them from moving too quickly. So many TDs simply decided to ignore the new rule change, and they didn't enforce the change.

I thought that situation was also very strange, since some TDs were openly defying the new rule change. (Personally, I didn't care either way. The issue wasn't that important to me.) And frankly, I heard that the USCF was considering reversing the decision again, but since I lost interest in the issue, I don't know if they actually reversed it. Basically, now when I play a tournament game, I couldn't care less whether my opponent records his move before or after playing it. 🙂

Originally posted by Mad Rook
I'll give you another weird one that you might not be aware of. Recently, the USCF changed the rule about recording your move before playing it. They changed the rule so that you were REQUIRED to make your move before recording it on your scoresheet (with the only exception being if you were using one of those expensive MonRoi electronic scoresheets). Well, , I couldn't care less whether my opponent records his move before or after playing it. 🙂

OK, I just checked. Yes, the USCF did recently reverse Rule 15A to allow the recording of the move to be made either before or after the played move. The only requirement now is that if a person records the move before playing it, he is not allowed to make multiple crossouts and additions of different moves, which could be construed as illegal note taking.

And yes, although it's strange that many TDs decided to not enforce Rule 15A when it was in force, I definitely think it's stranger that TDs may be enforcing a castling rule that doesn't exist. As you stated, only in the USCF. 😞

Edit - It almost makes me want to touch my rook first while castling just to see how my opponent and the TD would react. It might be fun filing an official protest, hehe. (I'm a little devil, aren't I?)

Originally posted by Mad Rook
OK, I just checked. Yes, the USCF did recently reverse Rule 15A to allow the recording of the move to be made either before or after the played move. The only requirement now is that if a person records the move before playing it, he is not allowed to make multiple crossouts and additions of different moves, which could be construed as illegal note taking. ...[text shortened]... ld react. It might be fun filing an official protest, hehe. (I'm a little devil, aren't I?)

Haha. Make sure you have a copy of the rules with you!

Hey, I'm just getting back into OTB. Since you seem to be well versed...one question that I have are what are the rules wrt to recording moves when you are in time trouble?! Say under a minute?

Originally posted by MrHand
Haha. Make sure you have a copy of the rules with you!

Hey, I'm just getting back into OTB. Since you seem to be well versed...one question that I have are what are the rules wrt to recording moves when you are in time trouble?! Say under a minute?

Rather than risk missing any details, I'll just quote the applicable USCF rules:

15B. Scorekeeping in time pressure, non-sudden death time control. If either player has less than five minutes remaining in a non-sudden death time control, both players are excused from the obligation to keep score until the end of the time control period. Doing so, however, may make it impossible to claim a draw by triple occurrence of position (14C) or the 50-move rule (14F) or a win on time forfeit (13C). Scorekeeping by both players must resume with the start of the next time control period, and missing moves should be filled in (15F).

15C. Scorekeeping in time pressure, sudden death time control. If either player has less than five minutes remaining in a sudden death time control, both players are excused from the obligation to keep score. A scoresheet is not required to win on time in a sudden death control. (13C).

Originally posted by Mad Rook
Rather than risk missing any details, I'll just quote the applicable USCF rules:

[b]15B. Scorekeeping in time pressure, non-sudden death time control. If either player has less than five minutes remaining in a non-sudden death time control, both players are excused from the obligation to keep score until the end of the time control period. Doing so, ...[text shortened]... on to keep score. A scoresheet is not required to win on time in a sudden death control. (13C).[/b]

Thanks!!

I find the USCF site hard to navigate. Could you post the link where you got the rules??

Originally posted by MrHand
Thanks!!

I find the USCF site hard to navigate. Could you post the link where you got the rules??

Arghhh, I was afraid you might ask that question... You're not going to like the answer, though.

If you want a copy of the USCF rules, you're going to have to buy a copy of the rule book. You can look on the USCF web site all you want, but you won't find the rules in electronic form. The reason that I've heard is that the USCF has an exclusive contract with the current publisher of the rule book (Random House/McKay). The publisher has the right to decide the method of distribution, and the USCF can't post the rules on the internet unless the publisher agrees. And I suspect the publisher would prefer to sell rule books instead of giving the information away for free on the web. 😉 (And unfortunately, I've heard that there's no expiration date on this contract, so I don't see a new contract being made any time soon. Once again, leave it to the USCF to come up with something like this.)

The only information regarding rules that you WILL find on the USCF web site is changes since the last published edition of the rules. That information is somewhat scattered in the TD section, but it's mostly located in the TD Corners articles. Go to the link below and search for the TD Corner link.

https://secure.uschess.org/tds/

Originally posted by Mad Rook
The USCF rules are interesting in regards to the TD's discretionary powers. Sometimes he has no choice and must apply penalties or forfeit a player. But very often, he can choose whether to simply issue a warning, or to apply a penalty (and even the severity of the penalty). One thing I've learned from playing in tournaments is that one of the main responsi ...[text shortened]... ons by using common sense when interpreting the rules. And sometimes that's not an easy task.

Since the USCF rule implicitly allows touching the rook first, a penalty or warning is inappropriate. Rule 9C states regarding castling "the move is determined with no possibility of change when the player's hand has released the king, which has moved two squares ......" It seems to me that the player can move the rook first to f1 (kingside) or d1 (queenside) and then decide whether he wants to castle or not. Dumb IMO, but legal according to the USCF.

Originally posted by Mad Rook
Rather than risk missing any details, I'll just quote the applicable USCF rules:

[b]15B. Scorekeeping in time pressure, non-sudden death time control. If either player has less than five minutes remaining in a non-sudden death time control, both players are excused from the obligation to keep score until the end of the time control period. Doing so, ...[text shortened]... on to keep score. A scoresheet is not required to win on time in a sudden death control. (13C).[/b]

Very strange.

A few months ago, I was in game where my opponent refused to accept my draw offer, even though it was a dead draw.

He had a queen, king, and pawn (on the second rank), and I was left with a king and queen.

I had blundered a rook during the game, so I can see that he might have thought I would blunder again.

Anyway, we both had something like four minutes left, and he was continuosly checking me, and I just blocked with my queen. However, since I was not notating, I had no way to claim the draw.

The TD came over and began watching our game, and after a minute declared the game a draw due to three move repitition. (I'm pretty sure it was a good call.)

However, is this legal? I dont think so.

Seen a few things during games in my time.
Never seen a player get a warning for touching a Rook first
though I know the rules exists.

In a league game v a player called Frisher I had played Ke8-d8 and back
to e8 a few moves later. Later I won a piece and my opponent instead
of resigning played on to try and drive up play against my King.

I castled and my opponent resigned.
I forgot all about my King moves earlier, if my opponent had
noticed he could have insisted I play 'Touch Move' and I would have
been forced to move my King.
As I recall the only move was Kf8 which lost.

We were playing over the game and as we were getting to the bit
where I moved my King, I suddenly realised what I had done.

I made an excuse and left.

I often wondered what he thought when he tried to enter THAT
game into a personal database and his machine won't allow Black to 0-0.

Originally posted by clandarkfire
Very strange.

A few months ago, I was in game where my opponent refused to accept my draw offer, even though it was a dead draw.

He had a queen, king, and pawn (on the second rank), and I was left with a king and queen.

I had blundered a rook during the game, so I can see that he might have thought I would blunder again.

Anyway, we both h ...[text shortened]... e repitition. (I'm pretty sure it was a good call.)

However, is this legal? I dont think so.

TD's must count 50 moves or 3 times repetition if asked (I think), but I think that your TD was out of sync with the USCF rules by calling it without being asked. That being said, it seems like TD's basically have the power to do whatever they want if nobody appeals.

Originally posted by clandarkfire
(TD decalring a draw by three fold rep.)

A TD can declare a draw if one side is making no attempt to
win the game but simply repeating to win on time.

Maybe that's why he declared the game drawn.

(I've seen wins for the lone Queen v Queen & Pawn - I'll
see if I can find one - they are quite funny as well as instructive).

Originally posted by randolph
TD's must count 50 moves or 3 times repetition if asked (I think), but I think that your TD was out of sync with the USCF rules by calling it without being asked. That being said, it seems like TD's basically have the power to do whatever they want if nobody appeals.

I think randolph's response is a pretty good one. I'm not certain of the rules, though. I did find in the rule book that if the game is a USCF Blitz game, the TD does have the authority to declare a draw by triple occurence of position without being asked. (Page 292, item 5 of the USCF rule book, 5th ed)

Also, USCF Rule 18G2 does allow the TD to declare a game over under certain circumstances, but none of the examples given was triple occurence of position. (The examples mentioned as acceptable were if the game has been decided by checkmate, late arrival for game, late arrival for adjournment resumption, stalemate, or insufficient material to continue.)

Here is that win I was thinking of.

Batuev v Simagin, Russia 1954. (move 85).



White to play and win.