Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

  1. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    25 Mar '06 05:21
    White's move



    Evaluate.

    (from Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual)
  2. 25 Mar '06 05:41 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    White's move

    [fen]8/8/8/2p1r3/4k1K1/2P5/2PR4/8 w - - 0 1[/fen]

    Evaluate.

    (from Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual)
    c4! and Black is in zugswag. haha nice spelling.

    Rook can't move along the e file because of a rook check picking up the rook. Same thing happens if he moves along the rank.

    King can't really move. If Ke3 then Rd5 trading of rooks and winning or picking up the pawn with a probable win.
  3. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    25 Mar '06 07:53
    Originally posted by RahimK
    c4! and Black is in zugswag. haha nice spelling.

    Rook can't move along the e file because of a rook check picking up the rook. Same thing happens if he moves along the rank.

    King can't really move. If Ke3 then Rd5 trading of rooks and winning or picking up the pawn with a probable win.
    1.c4 fails because after 1...Ke3 2.Rd5, black has 2...Re4+ followed by 3...Rxc4 =
  4. 25 Mar '06 08:14 / 1 edit
    I'm thinking 1.Re2+ Kd5 2.Rxe5 Kxe5 3.Kf3
  5. 25 Mar '06 09:51
    It is a matter of when to exchange rooks to obtain king opposition, not about zugzwang. White plays 1.Rd1!

    It is clear that the black king cannot move without losing the rook.

    The black rook has only one move that doesn't lose immediately:
    1. ... Re6. But then 2.Re1+ Kd5 3.c4+ Kd6 4.RxR+ KxR 5.Kf4 wins.

    The other move black can try is c4. But then also 2.Re1+ Kd5 3.RxR+ KxR 3.Kg5 gains the opposition and wins.
  6. 25 Mar '06 12:55
    Originally posted by Mephisto2
    It is a matter of when to exchange rooks to obtain king opposition, not about zugzwang. White plays 1.Rd1!

    It is clear that the black king cannot move without losing the rook.

    The black rook has only one move that doesn't lose immediately:
    1. ... Re6. But then 2.Re1+ Kd5 3.c4+ Kd6 4.RxR+ KxR 5.Kf4 wins.

    The other move black can try is c4. But then also 2.Re1+ Kd5 3.RxR+ KxR 3.Kg5 gains the opposition and wins.
    yeah. feel happy now?
  7. 25 Mar '06 13:28
    Originally posted by Jusuh
    yeah. feel happy now?
    Why do you ask? I thought that Rahim deserved an explanation why it was not a zugzwang issue, but simply an opposition problem.
  8. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    25 Mar '06 13:38 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Mephisto2
    It is a matter of when to exchange rooks to obtain king opposition, not about zugzwang. White plays 1.Rd1!

    It is clear that the black king cannot move without losing the rook.

    The black rook has only one move that doesn't lose immediately:
    1. ... Re6. But then 2.Re1+ Kd5 3.c4+ Kd6 4.RxR+ KxR 5.Kf4 wins.

    The other move black can try is c4. But then also 2.Re1+ Kd5 3.RxR+ KxR 3.Kg5 gains the opposition and wins.
    Black is in zugzwang after 1.Rd1!

    Your line continues 1... Re6 2.Re1+ Kd5 3.c4+ Kd6 4.Rxe6+ Kxe6 5.Kf4

    But now black plays 5...Kf6, and black has the opposition.



    Opposition is useful only when outflanking is possible. Here white has the continuation 6.Ke4 Ke6. Black still has the opposition, but white can kill a tempo:

    7.c3! The point of white's third move. Again, black is in zugzwang.
  9. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    25 Mar '06 13:44
    Originally posted by o0obruceleeo0o
    I'm thinking 1.Re2+ Kd5 2.Rxe5 Kxe5 3.Kf3
    3 ... Kf5 =
  10. 25 Mar '06 14:32
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    Black is in zugzwang after 1.Rd1!

    Your line continues 1... Re6 2.Re1+ Kd5 3.c4+ Kd6 4.Rxe6+ Kxe6 5.Kf4

    But now black plays 5...Kf6, and black has the opposition.

    [fen]8/8/5k2/2p5/2P2K2/8/2P5/8 w - - 0 6[/fen]

    Opposition is useful only when outflanking is possible. Here white has the continuation 6.Ke4 Ke6. Black still has the opposition, but white can kill a tempo:

    7.c3! The point of white's third move. Again, black is in zugzwang.
    Of course it is the tempo with c3 that allows white to take over the opposition. I thought that was clear. And although the opposition theme is including (based on) zugzwang, it is a theme on its own.
  11. 25 Mar '06 14:39
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    Black is in zugzwang after 1.Rd1!

    Your line continues 1... Re6 2.Re1+ Kd5 3.c4+ Kd6 4.Rxe6+ Kxe6 5.Kf4

    But now black plays 5...Kf6, and black has the opposition.

    [fen]8/8/5k2/2p5/2P2K2/8/2P5/8 w - - 0 6[/fen]

    Opposition is useful only when outflanking is possible. Here white has the continuation 6.Ke4 Ke6. Black still has the opposition, but white can kill a tempo:

    7.c3! The point of white's third move. Again, black is in zugzwang.
    Opposition does include zugzwang, of course, but is is much more specific and therefor a theme on its own. I would not call 1.Rd1! a zugzwang move for that reason. I thought the tempo with c3 was obvious enough (on the 7.th or even the 8th move - after Ke4 Ke6 - btw.).
  12. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    25 Mar '06 15:25
    Originally posted by Mephisto2
    Opposition does include zugzwang, of course, but is is much more specific and therefor a theme on its own. I would not call 1.Rd1! a zugzwang move for that reason. I thought the tempo with c3 was obvious enough (on the 7.th or even the 8th move - after Ke4 Ke6 - btw.).
    The point of gaining the opposition is to put the opponent in zugzwang so that outflanking becomes possible. RahimK had the right idea, you found the moves.

    The position itself comes from a section titled "Zugzwang" in the chapter "General Endgame Ideas" in Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual. Dvoretsky states that black is in zugzwang after 1.Rd1. I think he is correct.
  13. 25 Mar '06 15:48
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    The point of gaining the opposition is to put the opponent in zugzwang so that outflanking becomes possible. RahimK had the right idea, you found the moves.

    The position itself comes from a section titled "Zugzwang" in the chapter "General Endgame Ideas" in Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual. Dvoretsky states that black is in zugzwang after 1.Rd1. I think he is correct.
    I have the utmost respect for Dvoretski, may that be clear.

    But telling that 1.Rd1 puts black into zugzwang, would mean that if after 1.Rd1, white were to move, th endgame would not be won by white, right? Well, this is NOT true. In the position AFTER 1.Rd1, if white were on the move, "c4" would win the game.
  14. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    25 Mar '06 15:56
    Originally posted by Mephisto2
    I have the utmost respect for Dvoretski, may that be clear.

    But telling that 1.Rd1 puts black into zugzwang, would mean that if after 1.Rd1, white were to move, th endgame would not be won by white, right? Well, this is NOT true. In the position AFTER 1.Rd1, if white were on the move, "c4" would win the game.
    Nonsense. Your argument makes sense only when the players are in reciprocal zugzwang. In the position given, only black is in zugzwang after 1.Rd1. If black were on move in the original position, 1...Ke3 would draw.
  15. 25 Mar '06 16:05
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    Nonsense. Your argument makes sense only when the players are in reciprocal zugzwang. In the position given, only black is in zugzwang after 1.Rd1. If black were on move in the original position, 1...Ke3 would draw.
    What? So, the starting position is a zugzwang because if white were on the move it would be draw? Very, very funny.

    End of discussion.