Two Knights Defense

Kunsoo

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24 Aug '11 01:27

Diophantus
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24 Aug '11 20:38
Originally posted by greenpawn34
4...Nxe5 leads to a concrete plus.

I wonder what it 'sees' when looking at 4...Bc5.
Whole books have been written about that variation.

Estrin gives 4...Bc5 20 pages and 4...Nxe4 gets literally one sentence.

It's has either found something against the Wilkes Barre/Traxler or
it has not run long enough. What does it like best for White.
5.Bxf7+ or 5,Nxf7 (or neither?).
It seems to have found something against both since both are given a fairly substantial plus for white. The difference between the two scores is not huge though but consistent so I guess the Wilkes Barre/Traxler lines appeal to a human but the machines like Nxe4. All the engines then like 5. Bxf7 for white, whereas all prefer Nxf7 after Bc5.

This is the result of just letting the engines run without doing anything. I'll try a little more interactive jiggery pokery to see if they produce a different result.
Diophantus
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24 Aug '11 21:56
Six hours of CPU time later and Nxe4 is still preferred over Bc5 and both are less popular than just letting the engines run in infinite analysis mode. As far as I can see the reason Nxe4 is preferred over Bc5 is simply that black has an extra pawn to comfort him in his dire situation.
Exuma
Anansi
Woodshed
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24 Aug '11 23:45
Here is a Traxler game from 1896 for those of you wanting one 🙂
Mikesa v Karel Traxler

EVENT cr
SITE cr
DATE 1896.??.??
ROUND ?
WHITE Mikisa
BLACK Karel Traxler
RESULT 0-1
WHITEELO ?
BLACKELO ?
ECO C57
EVENTDATE ?
Invert Board PGN Headers Comments
[Event "cr"]
[Site "cr"]
[Date "1896.??.??"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Mikisa"]
[Black "Karel Traxler"]
[ECO "C57"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "36"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 {go ahead, make my day} 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ {if KxB then Nxe4+ and the Queen comes into the attack} 6.Kf1 Qe7
7.Nxh8 d5 {open it up, the Bishop on f2 is still very dangerous to take} 8.exd5 Nd4 9.c3 Bg4 10.Qa4+ Nd7 11.Kxf2 {White finally eats the bait} Qh4+ 12.Ke3
Qg5+ 13.Kf2 Qf5+ 14.Kg1 O-O-O 15.cxd4 Rf8 {look at the lead in development! Its reallya 4 vs 2 fight, and whites Q and B are in purgatory} 16.h3 Qf2+ 17.Kh2
Bxh3 18.Kxh3 g5 {how would you escape Qh4#?} 0-1
greenpawn34
e4
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24 Aug '11 23:562 edits
Cheers. It's all interesting stuff.

That Traxler is very tactical. I suspect the horison effect is edging towards to
4...Nxe4 or does not no longer exist.

Perhaps the computer needs a Russian Schoolboy.
Not a joke. Play this one out. Imagine tring to solve it OTB.

The Readers of Pravda v Tal 1968-69

Basically it's Russia v Tal.
This game has a public health warning. Certificate X.
A fair few of of the Traxler mainlines are like this. (see the game above.)

Invert Board PGN Comments

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6. Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Kg1 Qh4 8. g3 Nxg3 9. hxg3 Qxg3+ 10. Kf1 Rf8 11. Qh5 d5 12. Bxd5 Nd4 13. Qh2 Qg4 14. Qxe5+ Be6 {Look at that position. If that appeared OTB in a tournament then both players would get locked up.} 15. Bxe6 Qf3+ 16. Kg1 Ne2+ 17. Kh2 Qf2+ 18. Kh3 Qf3+ 19. Kh4 Qf2+ 20. Kh5 Rxf7 21. Bxf7+ Kxf7 22. Rh2 Qf3+ 23. Kh4 g5+ 24. Qxg5 Rg8 25. Qh5+ Qxh5+ 26. Kxh5 {Phew! Black now took a draw with 26....Ng3+ and ...Nf5+. After the game a Russian Schoolboy one Vadim Brodsky found a forced Black win that even Tal missed. (I forgive him.) } 26... Nf4+ {If 27.Kh4 then 27...h5 and Rg4 mate.} 27. Kh6 Rg6+ 28. Kxh7 Rg7+ 29. Kh6 Kg8 {A brilliant find by the Russian lad in 1969. Mate with Rg6 cannot be stopped. The Pravda Readers never got their Queenside bits out.}
Exuma
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25 Aug '11 01:28
Originally posted by greenpawn34
Cheers. It's all interesting stuff.

That Traxler is very tactical. I suspect the horison effect is edging towards to
4...Nxe4 or does not no longer exist.

Perhaps the computer needs a Russian Schoolboy.
Not a joke. Play this one out. Imagine tring to solve it OTB.

[b]The Readers of Pravda v Tal 1968-69

Basically it's Russia v Tal.
Th ...[text shortened]... Mate with Rg6 cannot be stopped. The Pravda Readers never got their Queenside bits out.}[/pgn][/b]
Good grief! Chess.
tvochess
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25 Aug '11 09:16
Originally posted by greenpawn34

[...] The Readers of Pravda v Tal 1968-69[...]
What a game!

It appears to have no opening and middlegame.
plopzilla
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25 Aug '11 15:38
anyone know about the 3..Nh6 line?!

EVENT	cr
SITE	cr
DATE	1896.??.??
ROUND	?
WHITE	Mikisa
BLACK	Karel Traxler
RESULT	0-1
WHITEELO	?
BLACKELO	?
ECO	C57
EVENTDATE	?

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Two Knights Defense