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  1. 14 Nov '13 16:43
    Many sources indicate to play knights before bishops. But against, 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 is it best?

    I regularly play this because amateurs tend to easily fall into the Lolli Attack, and even more experienced players do not know how to properly handle a gambit opening. Yes, the Two Knights is a gambit for Black after 3...Nf6 4 Ng5.

    And if you read my book, https://www.createspace.com/4515223, or http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Knights-A-Chess-Killing-Machine-with-an-Emphasis-on-4-Ng5-/271319251507?ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:1123 - you will understand that White's 4 Ng5 is far from a duffer's move.

    My book concentrates on 8 Qf3, but it also discusses all of the other ideas such as 8 Bd3, and 8 Be2 (that Pinski prefers). My analysis shows that Pinski was shortsighted to flippantly dismiss 8 Qf3, and in fact, it maybe the strongest idea. But whatever your opinion is, one thing for certain is the Two Knights holds many creative ideas, traps, and grand opportunities for interesting and challenging chess.
  2. 14 Nov '13 17:04
    I played 8. Qf3 against IM Andrew Martin many, many years ago. I was three pawns up by move 18 and resigned a few moves later when my queen got trapped. Unfortunately I can't remember the game, but it started like this:
  3. Standard member atticus2
    Frustrate the Bad
    14 Nov '13 17:35
    I've played dozens of games in here with 8. Qf3 (Coleman var.?). Lost only one, I think - to some engine. In Fat Lady's game, 9. Bd3!? is the move - and 11. b3 after Black has forced Ne4.

    And look out for John van der Wiel's fabulous positional Q-sac. I'm dying to play it OTB one day. Played it a few times in here. Such fun

    Game 6796553
  4. 14 Nov '13 18:24
    That's a good game Atticus.
    Yes keep plugging away till you get OTB.

    I'm thinking the lad should have played some games on here by setting up
    a fixed postion from 8.Qf3 and then peddled the book.
    That would have been a good ploy.

    Not a 4.Ng5 player myself. (4...Bc4). I'm a true disciple of Tarrasch.

    ....and this is a good time to clear up Tarrasch's 'Duffer's Move.'

    What Tarrasch says in 'Die moderne Schachpartie' is:

    “Wohl nicht so energisch wie d2-d4 oder 0-0, aber sicherlich viel besser als
    der so häufig an dieser Stelle gemachte Zug Sg5, den ich für einen richtigen
    Stümperzug halte.”

    Which according to a Tim Harding article loosley tranlates too:

    “Probably not as energetic as 4 d4 or 4 0-0, but surely much better than
    the move so frequently made in this position 4 Ng5, which I hold to be a
    real bungler’s move.”
  5. Standard member byedidia
    Mister Why
    14 Nov '13 23:36
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    That's a good game Atticus.
    Yes keep plugging away till you get OTB.

    I'm thinking the lad should have played some games on here by setting up
    a fixed postion from 8.Qf3 and then peddled the book.
    That would have been a good ploy.

    Not a 4.Ng5 player myself. (4...Bc4). I'm a true disciple of Tarrasch.

    ....and this is a good time to clear up T ...[text shortened]... the move so frequently made in this position 4 Ng5, which I hold to be a
    real bungler’s move.”
    GP. How do you play 4...Bc4 after you just played 3...Bc4?
  6. 15 Nov '13 01:46
    Doh!

    4...Bc5


    Decided when I thought it was really important to memorise opening lines
    that I'd lighten the load and not go near this.

    The good thing about knowing the wee tricks and traps in these lines,
    including the 8.Qf3 variation is that you will see them at our level.
    Pretty pointless stuffing your head with junk you will never see, like
    the mainline of openings that the GM's are playing.
  7. 15 Nov '13 02:58 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by atticus2
    I've played dozens of games in here with 8. Qf3 (Coleman var.?). Lost only one, I think - to some engine. In Fat Lady's game, 9. Bd3!? is the move - and 11. b3 after Black has forced Ne4.

    And look out for John van der Wiel's fabulous positional Q-sac. I'm dying to play it OTB one day. Played it a few times in here. Such fun

    Game 6796553
    Thanks Prof, I've never seen 9. Bd3 before - it looks great! The game you quoted could only be a correspondence game, it's far too wild for OTB.
  8. Subscriber Paul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    15 Nov '13 04:41
    Originally posted by Fat Lady
    I played 8. Qf3 against IM Andrew Martin many, many years ago. I was three pawns up by move 18 and resigned a few moves later when my queen got trapped. Unfortunately I can't remember the game, but it started like this:
    [pgn]
    [Event "Edited game"]
    [White "Fat Lady"]
    [Black "Andrew Martin"]
    [Result "0-1"]

    1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6
    bxc6 8. Qf3 Rb8 9. Bxc6+ Nxc6 10. Qxc6+ Nd7
    [/pgn]
    I apologize if I am a little off topic, but I have to say that Martin's Winning with the King's Indian is one of the best and most entertaining chess books I have ever read. I let other players borrow books, but not that one.

    He is frank, honest, and insightful all in a package, and I would love to just be at the same tournament as him and listen to him kibbitz between rounds.
  9. 15 Nov '13 16:32 / 3 edits
    Hi Paul,

    I told Andrew Martin that personally a few years back when he was up in Edinburgh.
    It is not going to turn you into KID expert but it lays down good foundations.

    Back on topic. Of course Estrin's book on the Two Knights though out of date
    theoretically does show all the snares and tactics this opening hides.
    8.Qf3 (The Bogoljubov Variation) would be a good weapon to have up one's sleeve.


    Of course when I first saw this I was up for saccing the a8 Rook with 8...cxb5.
    Knowing all the wrinkles in that line would be a must.

    It is what Euwe opted for when he faced this line v Bogoljubov. (and Euwe lost).
    Estrin as usual comes up with a load of tricky looking lines some ending
    with his classic :"..and Black/White has a strong attack for scrificed material"
    (or words to that effect. no analysis just a hint to look here.)

    This means you dig in and do some work for yourself and judge how
    difficult it would be if this was virgin territory for your opponent.
    A loss in 100% pure analysis but a position so tricky your opponent is bound to go wrong.

    Hope Chess! Not a dirty word in my vocab, and I have the games to prove it.

    And anyway.
    Good players beat weaker players without all the tactics by simply
    heading for level positions and watching them slowly shipwreck themselves.
    100% analysis proves the position is equal but so equal the weaker
    player is bound to go wrong....Hope Chess?

    Back to the opening..

    Of course here Black can put White on a new sidewalk with...


    6...Bd7 Instead of 6...c6 which opens up it's own can of worms when Black has
    lines when he just sacs that out of play Knight on a5.

    Of course White can take the game in a completely different direction
    one move earlier with:


    Morphy's 6.d3 instead on 6.Bb5+ when White can consider the Bronstein piece sacrifice.

    A liefetime is to short to stuff your brain with all the lines.
    Just play Chess and hope for the best.
  10. Standard member atticus2
    Frustrate the Bad
    15 Nov '13 17:00
    The R-sac line led to a rare loss for me in the 8. Qf3 variation. Not sure I played it that well though. Anyway, here it is:

    Game 7741772
  11. Standard member byedidia
    Mister Why
    15 Nov '13 23:09
    Sorry, an error occurred. Please report this problem.